Planning Engineer and Programming Engineer

Clive,

If the programme engineer just inputs the data, why i dont call him a "clerk", even a clerk can input data in P3 , or in excel then the planner can export them to p3, why do we need an engineer for that?

Dana

Hi, Clive and Dana

Thanks for your reply.

I have doubt the job duty of planning engineer and programming engineer, especially in E&M and building services trade. What’s difference?

What’s role player of scheduler, planner, planning engineer and programming engineer? And What’s skills need respectively?

Now I get loss in my job!
Thanks,
Fannie

Fannie
Respective to Hong Kong the names are fairly meaningless
Its what they ask you to do thats important
In the Hong Kong context the job titles are often interchanged
Oscar

Oscar,

I totally agreed with you. Ha~ Ha~ Ha~

I want to know the job duty of them because I want to know what’s my propective job and what’s skills I need to pick up.

Thanks for your reply.

Cheers,
Fannie

In my opinion and based on the practical experiances, I found no differences between planning engineer and programming engineer.

Interesting topic: Both terms use the word "engineer". I’ve had many a discussion with my PM about this - and he seems to have entrenched ideas as to who is allowed to use the word "engineer". When our printer broke-down, and someone attached a note saying that the "Engineer has been called", he then scribbled-out the word ’Engineer’and replaced it with the word "Technician".

IMO, a person can call themselves an engineer if they understand the basic principles behind the result that is generated from their work. Therefore, a Planning Engineer will derive the sequence of activities based on his knowledge of the physical elements of those activities. He/she won’t necessarily be able to input it into an electronic programme, however. The Programming Engineer, though, will understand how to get the data in, manipulate it, generate reports etc. but may not necessarily understand the logic behind the sequence or be able to question its validity. Each person may be an "engineer" in their own right, but neither could really exist without the other. This is why the two terms are often inter-changable. And so the debate continues.....

James.

It is my understanding that you should not refer to yourself as an Engineer unless you have a degree in Engineering.

Gwen Blair
Social & Domestic Engineer

It is my understanding that you should not refer to yourself as an Engineer unless you have a degree in Engineering.

Gwen Blair
Social & Domestic Engineer

Gwen,

This is one element of the debate: Why should you have to have a piece of paper in order to call yourself an "Engineer"? Does practical experience count for nothing? If you understand and can apply the basic principles in order to achieve a desired result, then you have "engineered" that result. However, there is no doubt that you could prefix the word "engineer" with "formally qualified". The words "formally" and "qualified" also need defining; otherwise you get lots of mickey-mouse "qualifications" from the University of Disneyland. Often this type of thing is driven by the need for presentation-over-substance, and ends-up with everyone being totally dissatisfied with the situation - mainly because no-one really knows the meaning of anything.

Personally I blame it on Capitalism. Everyone is trying to sell you something, and they will use words that do not conform to the strict definitions or conventional interpretations, thus causing misleading conclusions to be reached. A classic example is the selling of junk-food, where they splatter the packet with statements like "25% Less Fat". Yeah right....25% less than what? It’s only when you investigate and question them that you get the comparative figures - but how many people are willing and able to undertake such investigations. Ultimately, therefore, most statements become virtually meaningless(especially when those statements are designed to sell you something - including a person who’s selling themself).

OK, ranting now complete!

Depending upon which dictionary you read, it is comparatively easy to allow almost anyone to call themselves an engineer - which, of course, demeans the status of those who prefer to abide by the conventional definition. Unfortunately, this is another of those un-ending debates....... Oh why does life have to be so complicated? Is there a cave in which I can hide, forage for my nuts, fruits and veggies - and warm the cockles by the "Real Flame Fire - buy one and get one free in our October Pre-Winter multi-cave, multi-fire Great Winter Sale".

Gosh, am I’m ranting again?

James :-)

Aye! You are ranting. Its all those nuts you eat.
I am not for one minute saying because you have a parchment stating you have graduated in an Engineering course that you are a competant Engineer - far, far from it!

And, full circle, we are back to the argument Planning Engineer versus Planner.

Hi guys,

My 2p……
My working experience is with-in railway sector for 10years.
Engineer, would I call myself one with out any college or university degree or any engineering qualification YES.
My life started working in a Gang on the railway doing relaying, assisting the engineer setting up lasers, taking levels etc, also doing the bloody work myself.
I progressed through the skills until I reached the top ticket. Then I went into possession planning, this was not planning as we are talking about here, but it gave me the opportunity to gain valuable experience in planning from other planners.

Anthony Robins an author speaks about Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).
To make this simple if you read a cook book and follow the instruction step by step you can bake the same cake. You don’t need to be a qualified cook !
In life I have learnt that watching and talking to people and taking the information in will get you results in what ever you are trying to achieve, quicker than doing a course, you also get to look and use the skills in a REAL environment, not in a class room.
Every company has different procedures and carry these out in different ways, I have trained up planner’s which come into my company who have done a degree and they have not got a clue. They do not know the task’s/activities/resources anything, they have not even worked apart from in “Top Shop”, but they are a planning engineer !!

In university they do not give you on site experience, I have seen many lost engineer’s walking around not know what they are doing no common site sense or anything, all they have is a piece of paper to there name and they think they can take on the world and they are always RIGHT as there teacher said so !
Planning, I have written method statements, risk assessments, I have implemented safe systems of work on the railways and construction sites, and I have been at the front line for 7 years of my working life. I know what the timescales are for an activity, I know how many men will need to do a task, and I know what skills these men will need. I did not get a degree for this, I know it off by heart.
Now day’s employers want this piece of paper, it is not necessary that anyone in planning has to have done years of wading through books to be able to call them self’s a planning engineer. As long as the individual can display knowledge of a subject to a certain level, equal with a university person this should be sufficient.

Now planners are getting thin on the ground there are many software jockeys around, But that does not mean that one day with the right guidance they can also be of a level in which to be called a PLANNING ENGINEER !!!

Hi, all

Your discussion inspired me a lot.

Thank you very much.

Cheers,
Fannie

PS. By grabbing all Chances!!

Gerome & Clive,

u can’t be a "planner" unless u have worked in site (as a site engineer or at least to supervise).

but to be an engineer u need to qualify and earn the qualification (so u can work as a designer for example).

i think if u know the tasks of the planning job in whole u will recognize the difference between the "planner" and the planning engineer (ie the job isn’t limited only to make schedules and updates there’s more in it: claims, reporting methodology itself, etc..).

Regards.

If I did not make it clear, my experience range is from shovel – site supervisor – planner. I have come from a site background not schooling.
I believe that knowing all aspects of site work is key to understanding logic / process / activities/ duration and any mistakes in any plan.
I also believe the most important thing to know in planning is to be able to plan without a computer. This is how I was taught and how I guide others.
I am no expert in planning by any means but I enjoy what I do and am getting better as the years pass.

Blair response seems to be more approprite in relation to the subject issue

Fannie

My advice to you is,
1 Forget about the title,
2 Concentrate on your skill set,
3 Find a good teacher (collegue) and learning all their skill and tricks. (^&^)
4 If you learn all in one company move to another company and repeat 2&3 until you find no more can be gain.
5 Get a PMP or MPM or MBA
6 Then you found that your title is no longer have "engineer" attached anymore, who care

All the best

Alex

Fannie

BTW I have a engineering degree in Computer System. Now I am a Master Planner in a Power Distribution Company and none of my skill learnt in school I apply these day. The points is you will found that planner can come from all sort of background. I once have a senior planner work for me who study Zoology in South Africa and he did a excellent job as a railway/possessions planner.

Alex

Hello Alex,

Thanks for your reply.

In my mind, planner is located at high level and take care whole picture. the power is from top to bottom. It’s more conceptual. I totally agreed that planner should peruse PMP, MBA...... to establish much business sense.

I had an experince in Overhead Line installation of Railway project too. MC or CM gave us a time-window for our installation work. As E&M contractor, we have to think how to complete the work within given time-window. It involve that labour force, no. of plant required...with time constraints.

For my work, it’s from bottom to up. I have to understand the work on site and think about how many manpower and time to fix the work on site. The work priority also consider the Milestones schedule/Work completion schedule which set out by client or MC/CM. Then I have to prepare the work programme and submit for approval. I think the technical background is helpful for this task.

For claims planner in construction industry, it’s an other story.

Planner / Scheluer / planning engineer / programming engineer are quite difference in term of scope of duty.

That’s what’s in mind and why I have this question.

Thanks for your sharing.

Cheers,
Fannie

PS. Congratulation to your subordinate who got a open minded boss.

Hi all

God is Great, you have touched in this thread a taboo question ( at least in our country), can an experienced technician with lots of skills and knowledge acquired during all those years honestly serving a company can have the title of engineer.

IMO, to have this title all had to study at least 17 years, whether in the project site you are better then 15 years experience guy, this is another topic.

Of course, the science of construction is not a rocket science, experience and interpersonal behavior are perhaps the most important factors for the success of a project, but if you want to reward a site guy, you have a lot of choice, let him be a PM or a Manager if you want, but keep away this holy word engineer.

Perhaps jealousy is driving my thoughts, but just when I remember proudly all those sleepless nights spent trying to figure out how to resolve those weird equations in dynamic structure. I think to deserve this title you have to pass the same pain.

Cheers
mimoune

Hi Mimoune

My question to you is "Do you still do the same question you did when you are study these days, or you apply the problem solving skill you learn in school to solve your daily routine?"

My point is study as an engineer give you the ability to think logically, problem solving, find references etc...
However, the textbook cannot give you the exact answer you face each day as an engineer. So if a person who have those skill to solve problem, providing an engineering solution should we call them engineer??

I was offer an title as an Professional Engineer by the IEEE, but I only consider myself as a planner. Does it mater if I have the Engineer Title in the back, to me $ is better than a title.

Cheers

Alex

Hi Alex

Sorry for the lag, our IT administrator has converted to ‘our company management quality evangelist tm’ spreading love about how ISO 9001 V2000 can change life of our honest craftsmen, so no internet for 2 days-;) any way it gave me enough time to tune my post and make it politically correct ;)

Facts:

- Bachelor of Science in engineering = engineer.
- Last year of high school + 2 years study in an ”institute” college = technician.
- Ingénieur agrée ; if you have enough experience you can be qualified by ministry of civil –
works ( for road & infrastructure) to design works for other.
- I have a friend who has a BSc in statistic and he works for fortune a 500 company doing gas & oil work. And I know very genius core programmer for an open source project (kde.org), and guess, he is a doctor. (btw he is an Aussie)


Questions ?

- So excuse my ignorance; how can you have an engineering degree? And you are not an engineer?
- What is a professional engineer?

Morality of this post:

- As you can see, Alex, my last post was highly inappropriate; I am just a schmuck, who complains about things that he doesn’t understand.
- I need go home, another month in this desert and I’ll become crazy (my co-worker told me, I am already)

Cheers
mimoune

Hi,

I am no planner nor engineer but read tgis thread & hope I can clarify someof the differences in culture & thinking.

I once work with a Japanese Contractor. In Japan, their education system are different from UK or Commonwealth countries.
They spent years studying as an undergraduate, maybe "construction" not necessary specialising in any field. Then spent years to gualify as a grade 1 architect in "On the Job Training", who will also be an technical/structural ready.

During this time, they start from the bottom, sat furthest away from the "window", in fact if you are lucky, you get a desk because you should be out on site/field doing all the "supervisory" duties.
To be a good supervisor, you required to understand the INSTRUCTION, scope of work, the method of construction, planning for the work, purchasing of resources, design & drafting (CAD/Shop drawing), coordinating the resources, schedule/time control, labour & plant control, Quality control, post mortem analysis & COMMUNICATION (Whether through speech, written reports or drawings)

They move slowing towards the "window" & Handon experinces are the best training you can get.

With years of "on the job training" they are not just educated but wise in the "ground work" so by the time they reach near to the "window", they are like "ginger - the older the hottest"

What I am trying to say here is, not necessary having BSC, MBA, Dr or BCS.
Western concept thinks letters behind name is important but it is the actual experience that is most important in any industry. That is why when you go for interview with a Japanese Company, they actually test you whetehr verbally or on paper.

In construction/civil, the title ENGINEER is for those who passed part 3 in the Institute of Civil Engineer, that means they are Chartered Enginner. Those who use the title as engineer are all misunderstood because they are only TRAINING enginner/Technician.

In my opinion, Expert can only reserve for those who have years of on the job experience and the appropriate academic background because otherwise they bound to be missing something somewhere so how can they call themselves expert?
Time is the only factor we can’t control and it is limited

So Fannie, I understand what you would like a a fast track up but ultimately, whether you are confident to do the job or not & do it properly is to get your hand dirty and understand the process, especially if you want to be a planner!!!

Hope this help

Dear All

May be we all sometime too attached to our title..

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Alex

Hi, Skan Bu

I’m totally agreed with you>>>> “Learn by Doing”.

I know some senior staff in my working place started from apprentice. Following time flying, their skill and acknowledge were strengthened. They got a higher post of project team for running the job and did it well.

Project is team work and unique product. Each project has its own characteristic & difficulty. I think that experience and problem solving skill is more important than academic background. It’s because I can not learn all things from university or college.

As a team member of project team, I want to perform my duty of assigned post well. I therefore want to know the skill for captioned.

Gents,
Thank you for your sharing.
Wishing you all have prosperous years coming & Happy New Year!!!

Cheers,
Fannie

Hello to All,

To all PP: my warmest greeting of Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

The year 2005 and 2006 was a great year.

The year to come hopefully will be the best ever.

It offers opportunity to broaden understanding of the planning planet world.

My philsophy now is to get the best of the planning planet: the positive and the negative.

You guys and gals are great. Only in this plannet can we learn a lot

So for this post I agree to all.

Cheers,

Charlie

I agree with Richard about the value (or lack thereof!) of an MBA. I can’t speak for the rest of the world, but project management is hardly even an afterthought in most U.S. MBA programs. And even where there is a PM component, the professors teaching concepts such as WBS, CPM, etc. generally don’t know their elbows from a hole in the ground about such PM topics.

In the past ten years, there has been a huge increase in the number of M.Sc. in PM programs being offered in the U.S. I can’t speak to them all, but I can guarantee that the one I teach in, at Brandeis University in Massachusetts, provides an excellent grounding in the basic concepts of project planning, scheduling, costing, and tracking.

Dear All

Same comments

Just a title

Experience and qualification count more than the title itself and that reflect on the earning.

However, I have to admit that there are cowboy planners out there who know nothing about planning except using the software call themself a planner, this is because the industry simply do not train enough planner to support the needs. That created these cowboy planner. In times only the good one will survie, not the bull xxx artist.

^^ Happy 2007

Alex