NUMBER OF ACTIVITIES

Dear all

The following is my attempt interpret the query

What Se mentioned in terms of critical path, risk analysis, delay claims ... IMHO they are project management activities. Yes of course it is a matter where the contractor has to manage his project. That is a detail level program (usually refer to L3 or L4 schedule)

What Gary I think is refers to is a L1 or L2 schedule where the client is manage multi projects at a portfolio and programme level. Of course they will still need to have a details breakdown schedule for project management elsewhere. However, to manage a portfolio, they will need a wider view more than a deeper view in order to manage a portfolio

Therefore there is no correct answer to how many activities is enough for a schedule. IMHO it is more important to see whether the schedule is fit the purposes and achieve the outcomes.

As I stated in my previous post, in order to manage a project you need to cover all the different aspects of projects or program or portfolio and if some of the aspect is already manage outside the schedule, then there is no point to replicate the management effort and incorporate these details into the every schedule.

An example is procurement, if the detail of all the equipment is already managed in a Master Procurement Plan elsewhere, there is no point to load all equipment, plant and resource into your schedule and try to replicate the complete picture. However, if there is no such schedule existed then if the PM wanted, you can put all the equipment in your schedule like date ordered, manufactured shipped, arrived, arrived on site...

If you see a schedule without these detail of procurement then should you said it is insufficient number of activities or not??

HTH

Alex

Hi Mr Leon,
U never know where the basis come from, If u dont go for CLIENTS Management meeting, U know somthing, last time I nearly got fired because asking for the basis of 20 activities, where it come from? Now i did understand, They didnt care about how u got the basis, critical path, manpwer, once u already dicide the commence date they will stated in minutes of meeting, and thats the date we have to commit with the Goverment. The only basis i know its related with dollar and cents they will try to achieve as per their target.
But in my brain still have so many question... Puzzle if i keep thinking of my 35000 activities is no relation at all with this 20 activities. Thats all...my nightmares history

Hi Raja,

If you can protect your employer and yourselves with 20 activities then manage your programme using the 20 activities. If you are just being forced to use it, i don’t think that would be beneficial for you and your organization. Again I say, this is about the programme should respond to the organizational needs. Number is just secondary. Of course i’m not discounting politics(covering your as#) in the work place. This is still part of organizational needs.

If only we can always do it that way(20,42,50 activities) ..... how i wish.

Cheers,
Se

What do you mean Mr. France?...that we’re only Human & not Machines? And they’ve been working on that for "seven & a half million years"?...

And maybe the reason why planning is endless...because of the Number of Activities...?

And what can we do as plain Human? Rely on Machines?

Well, I got some kind of religion too...


have a nice day to everyone...

Edgar,

I am really struggling to understand your point. Perhaps it’s time to call a halt to this!

Gary

Perhaps my quote added some confusion? Edgar, it’s from Douglas Adam’s superb work: The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything

Bernard Ertl
eTaskMaker Project Planning Software

Thanks Bernard,

I was confused by Edgars reference to me in his last post. Scrolling down, I can see he meant your quotation.

its been a long day....

All is clear now.

Gary.

I think the last respondent who spoke sense was Clive. The number of activities you can handle and update, is dependant on how you structure your project. There has always been this question of how many activities a planner can handle, and the argument revolves around this issue. People independently have different ideas, and it varies between 700 and 500 000, but GF who proposes himself as the major planner seems to think in the order of 1000. There is a lot of factors which contribute, such as the duration of the project, cost etc.

The level of experience will dictate what any planner can handle. Therefore the argument becomes relatively ignonanimice. The point is if you drive a VW Polo, or a SAAB, or SABURA, what is the perfomance. If you doubt yourself and lsck the experience, you will never be able to complete a project on time, which is what we are employed for in the first place.

No, the number of activities does not depend on the project structure. It depends on the schedule purpose. If you need performance simulation that shows impacts of resources to be used, supply and financing delays, etc. you will need the same network model. But you can use different WBS, OBS, RBS.

Vladimir

100% agreed, fit the purposes is most important.

Cheers

Alex

And what’s the next Activity?


Thank You.

Hello,

This time I agree with Alex and Vladimir.

More on Vladimir since he did more than 40,000 activities with matching simulations (as Vladimir stated in his previous post) using Spider for some structures during the Moscow games.

The number of activities is directly proportional to the amount of the construction project (in USD) (IMHO and hypothesis) multiplied by a factor of K (a constant depends on the planners attitude, extent of relationship with the client) divided by N.

Cheers,

Charlie

And what, do tell Charlie, is N?

And, if we are working in UK, can we multiply USD by .5704 so we can work in GBP?

With regard to K, does a bad relationship with the Client result in a larger or smaller number of activities?

Hi Vlad,

Tell me if your Spider project can do line of balance, or distance vs time

Yes, it can.
We use it in building construction projects using floors metrics and in pipelines using km’s.
X-axis - km, Y-axis - time, different activity types are reflected as the lines of different colors and/or thickness in the diagram. These lines (curves) show where and when each type of work shall be done (or had been done).
Send me a letter to spider@mail.cnt.ru with your E-mail address and I will send back the screen shot of Linear Diagram as we call Line of Balance.
Regards,
Vladimir

Hi vlad,

How quickly can you get me a demo copy, I am on a linear project with possibly 150 000 activities.

Regards

Philip

As soon as you will send me your E-mail.

Hi Vlad

pilplan@iafirca.com

Many thanks mate

Charlie

Please answer David

He has asked a valid question on what appears to be games theory

Oscar

The number of activities in a project depends on:
1. the size of the project
2. the complexity
3. the level of detail needed by project stakeholders
4. the type of industry (mining projects tend to have less detail than fabrication or refinery turnaround projects)
5. the number of competent planners available

Coming from the construction industry, i believe that an activity should have a duration of about 3 days. I have planned a design schedule for the construction of two whole cities (from the ground up). The design schedule alone came up to 40,000 activities. Updating was done using Primavera Post Office. It was fully resource loaded and was integrated with an accounting software. The whole schedule took 1 ream of A4 to print.

However, one does not really have to print the whole schedule during the execution and controlling phases. Lookaheads suffice. And during updating, we just check if the milestones are met. If not, we try to comperss the schedule and look at the resulting resource loading, and cost curves.

It is really not a matter of having thousands of activities. I think that the quality of the schedule should not be sacrificed by developing a high level schedule. Detailed planning is very important. For it is only through detailed planning that you really get to know how to go about executing it -- considering all the design works, procurement schedules, staffing, and actual execution (constructing, installing, testing, etc.).

So if you have a large complex project that needs a lot of activities, make sure that you have sufficient staffing to take on the planning and controlling works.

And I was just talking about the work P3 entails. When you go into Primavera Enterprise, you would need much more peope beucase this piece of software can really address a lot more project management information such as project expenses, risks, etc. Moving from P3 to PE is like upgrading from Microsoft Project to P3.

I’m working on a minesite development project with no smeltering equipment. So the schedule is really simple. Under 200 activities. Very relaxed. Problem is, the people in the mining industry is not as well versed in project management as construction people.

Oh well...

I Like the first part

however does anybody on site plan???
are the foreman robots
are the site engineers moluscs (SP)
is the site agent oh never mind

plan 400000 activities nonsense
3 day duration drivel
total total nonsense
its not planning its bar chart generation

planning
to endeavour to work out the the smallest number of activities that have to be completed and to successfully demonstrate what activities need to be completed in longest logical sequence to complete the project in the shortest possible time and in the most economical manner.

40000 bars of nonsense sitting on the wall one went wrong and they all fell off

Hi Oscar,

From reading your posts, they do not impress me, did you sleep with a planners sister? This vast experience you have must have stemmed from there.

Interesting debate.
To stop the argie bargie and put us back on track.

How does a planner monitor 40000 activities on site? Or has the old planning concept changed ? and now we are supposed to be desk bound data capturers. The fun part was always to steer the job on site, getting involved and making sure everyone works to the schedule.

What’s the forum opinion?

I really think that the number of activities is derived from the desired level of detailed needed by the stakeholders. More detailed levels will increase the number of activities. And a bigger project will also increase it.

Now, the question is, do we bug the people who execute the works to submit reports? Will they be more productive doing what they’re good at (Executing)? If so, I guess controlling (i.e. collecting project progress info) should be left to project control. This then increases the staffing requirement for people who would monitor/control the project.

After reading what has happened (project performance analysis), the replanning part should involve the people who owns the work (the people who execute). I don’t think that planning should be left to theorists -- the people who will execute the work should have the largest say about how it will be done. They, after all, are accountable for their piece of work (WBS).

Bottomline, we need to perform a Needs Analysis answering the question: How detailed is the planning requirement as demanded by the stakeholders? Then we staff it or go into project procurement if we want to outsource this piece of work (planning and controlling, managing the project information system). Lastly, we ask ourselves: Is the resulting cost needed to deliver the need justifiable? If so, no problem. If not, we need to either improve the system to minimize resource requirements (for the PMIS), or sacrifice quality.

But then again, sacrificing quality might prove expensive in the long run. Even managing the PMIS should be planned (obviously). Again, it boils down to: Fast, Cheap & Good -- pick any 2.

Ideal, huh? Doable? Depends on the leadership. And the budget.

Best regards,

Jorge

Good post Jorge....

I think no. of activities will vary from one project to another, from one discipline to another. say, we can’t expect roadworks to have more activities compared to building works or power plants.

It will all boil down as to what extent you need your programme to be detailed to suit your requirement & your client’s as well.

Regards

Rolyn

Guys,

From the more than a hundred posts on this subject, it is evident that the No. of Activities VARIES depending on so many factors such as project size, type/classification, planners involved, etc…

For the record, WHAT IS THE MAXIMUM NO. ACTIVITIES EVER DONE SO FAR? And what type of project is this, why this big number? How was it done?

In Post #5, it was stated that a 93,000 activities was provided for a shipbuilding project. Are there other projects exceeding this no?

Would be glad to know.

Regards,
Sen

Agree with you Jorge, but not on this one:

"Again, it boils down to: Fast, Cheap & Good -- pick any 2."


I think there’s no option on the above statement. It should be FAST, CHEAP & GOOD.


Cheers!
Sen

I understand your point, Sen. But then again, this is relative. I can’t expound on a rebuttal since doing so would bring me out of topic.

But your point of view is well taken.

Thanks,

Jorge

Project: LNG Plant(2 Trains)

Scope of Works: EPC (Engg, Procurement & Construction)

Duration: 36 Months

No. of Activities: 3000 (at Level 3)

Software: P3.1

No. of Scheduler: 1

Takes 3 days to prepare monthly progress update on P3 schedule including logic review, analysis and update.

Hello Sen,

Did I see you mention "Logic review", You better not mention that. You will get all sorts of questions. Did you not follow the topic "Changing the logic when project is underway"

Hey don’t worry, as I’m in the same business I understand.

Regards,

Joel

That is correct, Joel. Logic review, analysis and updating are part of the schedule progress updates. And I’m referring to the CURRENT Schedule not Baseline. I’d say the Logic should be reviewed, analyzed and updated because Project Team including the client are monitoring the project finish date. Without changing the logic, a lot of activities are becoming out of sequence, thereby not showing the true calculated total floats or project finish date – just as I’ve stated in "Changing the logic when project is underway" topic.


Regards,
Sen

We should be starting a new thread, as this is no longer related to the above subject. However, In addition to Sen’s post, I agree that we should be reviewing logic on a regular basis in line with the workflow on site and the availability of resources to make it a more realistic schedule.

In construction or whatever task it maybe. You have this inherent logic which you can not change (progressive way of doing a task) and the preferred logic or workflow (your preferred means and ways of attacking the work). The workflow should be agreed with the construction team and this should be done considering the availability of resources.

Regards,
Daniel

Guys,

My apologies for bringing up the topic on changing logics in Post Nos. 140, 141 & 143.

For those who are interested to discuss this topic please go to below link:

“Changing the logic when project is underway” http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=5&Top=16233

Regards,
Sen

Now going back to topic, may I post this question again:

WHAT IS THE MAXIMUM NO. ACTIVITIES EVER DONE SO FAR? And what type of project is this, why this big number? How was it done?

In Post #5, it was stated that a 93,000 activities was provided for a shipbuilding project. Are there other projects exceeding this no?

Sen

Sen,

The largest number of activities in a schedule I have run is around 40,000 with 60,000 logic links and 80,000 resource assignments. The job was for a maintenance turnaround in a nickel refinery, took six months for two planners and one planning assistant to prepare. Feed off to feed on was twenty three days which meant progressing an average of about seventeen hundred activities per day. Progress data entry was done via an Access Database front end on P3 by the planning assistant whilst the planners gathered the progress information in the field. (I don’t generally trust the supervisors to be completely truthful where progress is concerned)

Regards

Paul Silver

talking bout.... number of activities.....i had running around 11 000 activities......may I’ve ur prx file?

A large number of activeties does not realy mean anything else than a large number of activeties.
It tells nothing about the level of control the managemnet got.

The goal is to get the right activeties into the schedule and
keep a structure that fits the rest of the project.
To many activeties can lead to a project within the project
and therby planning to be a burden and not the tools it’s supposed to be.

s

93000, 35000, 11000 !!!! what is that !!! guys we are modeling the project not more than that, MODELING !!!

making lareg number of activities (more than needed) violates the spirit of project management and planning. The minimum activities you got the moew effiecient you be, we are not making method statement in the programme, the project engineer and the formen know what to do.

I belive that the programme is a MANAGEMENT TOOL, it should be the link between the reality and the decision makers, just keep it that simple you got better life.

The rule of thump in decomosition the activities is untill you can assign one man or one group to do it, if you sub-divide more than that you got more activites than you should. I do not see any bad thing to say in the progress meeting that we achieved our plan in this week, and we have 10 acitivites done by 70%, or such like, What is the benifit to say that we have completed 200 activity in this week!! the execitives will only concern about overall planned, and overall actual perecentage.

From my experience in construction, 700-2000 activities are enough, not sure about the ships project though, but i am sure 93000 activities are just too much over the optimum.

I think i agree on that.
One of the worst things that can happen is planning one level to deep. What means that the project will not use your planning anymore because they cant read it. And it means for the planning engineer that he gets the progress on one level higher than his planning so he has a lot of work translating the progress into the planning.

So better try to keep the planning as simple as possible and try not to see it as a product it self.
Of course the planning needs to have the details so you can use it for the control. So it always comes back at the point that the structure must be ok and the level of detail must be ok, and for me this is never the same. (planning is not that easy)

Kind Regards

Henk

Walied,
my experience shows that the model for construction of one 11 floors building consists of approximately 3000 activities.
Nobody will create more activities than necessary for proper modelling of resource work.
93000 is too large for one ship, but unfortunately the same Ship Yard resources are used for different ships construction. As the result you need to plan all of them.
For your information:
The model for construction of one ship body consisted of 11000 activities.
Regards,
Vladimir

Vladimir,

I am currently working in project of 110 Villas, with only 1300 Activity, include material & Shop drawings submittals, and Procurment. every villa is 3 floors, include soft and hard landscaping, boundary wall, and of course external works of the site it self. the project is $50 million.

The monitoring and control of the project is smoth and very effiencet, i would like to mention that at any time i can see exactly how many villa is completed and how many was planned by that time and also the number of the villas, (such as villa 44, villa 45, etc..), without the need to make seperate programme for every villa, just making zones.

From project management perspective, making too much activities will make the project team managing the schedule instead of managing the project, this issue is addressed clearly in the PMBOK of PMI, and in any project management book.

Walied Abdeldayem, PMP

If you use the software for resource usage optimization you will need to create the model that simulates actual activities on every villa in your project. Actually it is easy because you can use templates.
You will also need the detailed schedule of materials utilization to optimize supplies.
So you will need to create new activity each time when the character of work is changing (different resources, different materials, different productivity, different cost, different calendar).
Such model can be used for resource (and supplies, and cost) constrained scheduling and risk analysis.
You described high level tracking of project execution. It is different task.
Regards,
Vladimir

Sorry, still not agree, i am doing all what you are saying wihout too much subdividing.

My methodology is the programme is a managment tool, not site tool.

However, I respect the difference in points of view.

Hi guys,

Hi Walied. Are your working for the contractor or consultant/client side?

For me this question really depends on how you view project management culture in the organization you are working for whether resource allocation is a primary concern in coming up with an execution programme or if the only concern is the project strategy/achievements.

For example, some contractor’s project managers will require his planners to go deeper into resource optimization as what vladimir said. If this is the case, then most likely the activity number will increase. Some contractors doesn’t do this. Some consulting planners require such recource management outputs from the program. Some contracts requires such resource optimization and risk analysis.

To answer again the question, it really depends on the Proj. Management culture.

Just my 2 cents.

Hope this helps.

Se

Se de leon is right.
There is not a need for the detailed schedule if
1) you are on Client side,
2) your resources are not limited and the task of resource optimization does not exist.
My example of 3000 activities for 11 floor building construction project was taken from the real life contractor’s schedule. The schedule was used to estimate the optimal amount of frames to be used and the number of construction workers that are needed.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Everyone in the project team needs a clear, honest & reliable information irregardless of which side he/she is working.

The question here is what is the ideal total number of activities for a certain project? Say, a typical high rise building or a road construction? An engineer or a planner who knows how to build inside-out is supposed to understand the basics or the sequencing of the tasks & to organize the program as to produce the desired result.

I agree that there is no definite answer for getting the exact total number of activities (tasks) as each & every project is unique. Now, how can a program becomes measurable? Is it necessary for each & every task to be measurable? And what is supposed to be the ideal unit of measure? Or milestones enough & accurate to measure a project?

Oh, by the way, how is a milestone being measured?

Edgar,

I think the progress of a milestone can be measured by the progress and total float of his predesessors. ?? (assuming that the milestone is fixed)

Ok the answer is a little bid deep, however i think it could be treu.

Kind regards

Henk

Henk,

I don’t understand. Would you mind explaining further?

Best regards,

Edgar

Edgar,

Many times a milestones means an (important) start point or end point for a group activities. At least thats mostly the case in my schedules. So the total progres of this group of activities tells you someting about the progress of the activities how are leading you to the important milestone.

On the other hand If you use The milestone for example as an KPI (Key Peformance Indicator) and you measure by total float or time variance (against baseline) it also tell you something about the progress of the activities who are leading to this milestone.
This type of report (KPI) is used a lot for Management Reports.

Hope explaines a little bid.

Kind Regards

Henk

Henk,

just curious why you keep using "bid" instead of bit? would that mean you’re more concerned about costs rather than details?

thanks