Float belong to the owner
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Oldest first- 0Andrew Flowerdew ·All,
Most programmes are not contract documents, (they may be), but the client requires the contractor to produce one and puts a clause in the contract to that effect.
If the programme is not a contract document it represents only a statement of the contractors intent. It is not fixed, the contractor can change it at any time. Normally the only time obligation on the contractor is to complete the project by the completion date and or complete parts of the project by any sectional completion dates. How he goes about that is usually entirely up to him.
Yes the client can change the above scenario via the contract but the above is the normal situation.
So, on day 1 the contractor produces a programme which shows the associated float.
Later the contractor decides to do the project in a different manner, (for his own benefit), and produces a programme for the remainder of the project showing unsurprisingly, different float.
The contractor finishes on the completion date. There are no client delays.
The as-built programme, (as usual), is different from either of the above programmes. Some activities took longer, some were shorter, some deviations in sequence occurred.
So:
Did the float in the first programme ever really exist or was it merely a figment of the contractors intention at the time?
Did the float in the second programme ever exist, the contractor didn’t finish until the completion date, was the programme too optimistic and actually there was never any float?
We all know what float is but when do you know if it actually exists? Can either party use something that in reality might not exist?
Can either party lay claim to something that the future may show never existed?
Just playing devil’s advocate, ownership of float and how it should be treated always seems to provoke a lively discussion.
Whoever owns it, if anyone at all, surely the real questions should always be, did the event in question actually cause delay or not, (or under some contracts is it likely too), and did the party suffering the delay incur additional costs as a result. If so that party should be compensated with time and or money. - 0Samer Zawaydeh ·Dear Andrew,
When the Contractor submits his Program of Works, it should be Engineered based on his experience with similar projects in the past. The float used and presented in the development of the Prject is based on his capabilities in managing his resources to complete the project within its constraint.
When the Engineer reviews and approved the schedule, based on his experience with previous similar projects, they approve the developed and submitted Program of Works.
The approval of the float at the initial stages of the project depends on the Contractor’s capabilities and the Engineers review and approval. After monitoring the progress of works, the Engineer determines if the Program of work correlate with the actual progress on a monthly basis and subsequently approves the continual use of the program of request for revision based on the actual progress.
Best Regards,
Samer - 0Mike Testro ·Hi Andrew
Welcome back.
We all realise that a construction programme is entirely theoretical but even so it is the only method we have of trying to predict the future.
I agree entirely that - unless the programme is a contract document - the contractor is at liberty to do whatever he wants between start date and end date.
There was that case some time back when the contractor was awarded a 3 months EOT in November - went away for three months - came back in the spring and finished on time.
I have noticed a recent development that adjudicators are reluctant to accept a developed baseline programme even when the original contract programme is entirely unsuitable for proper delay analysis. They seem to be insisting that the first programme must be sacrosanct.
Anyway back to the topic of float - of course we don’t know if it exists or not in real time - It is impossible to express exactly even in an As Built Programme.
Its a bit like how mathmeticians come to terms with the square root of a minus number - they know that it doesn’t exist but they have a symbol to represent it in their formulas other wise the theorem would not be able to be demonstrated.
Best regards
Mike Testro - 0Andrew Flowerdew ·Samer,
Yes, agree with all that, so what’s your point?
The existence of float is a purely hypothetical scenario during the currency of a project whose actual existence, (or not), can not be ascertained until the completion of the project.
The programme and everyones thoughts on day 1 may be that there is 10 weeks float on a project but that dosesn’t mean there actually is. - 0Francis Aborot ·Hi Andrew,
My purpose of opening the float ownership is so simple... Consuming the float increases the risk of completing the project on time. Meaning the delay becomes inevitable... Whether you readjust the activity relations(In this case the float changes and fictitiously correct) or whatsoever, THE RESOURCE HISTOGRAM INCREASES FOR THE LOOK AHEAD SCHEDULE caused by float consumption (It is true because the remaining duration to complete the project decreases over time). When the bottleneck appears in the schedule of resource that will alarm you for much higher manpower requirement is needed to complete the project, who will bear the responsibilities that will result in productivity loss, the one who is innocent of the crime or the victim of someones evilness to purposely delay the project...
Thnx and more power,
Francis
- 0Andrew Flowerdew ·Francis,
We all know what float is and what the effect of using it up is - but what are you using up, how do you actually quantify it?
It’s a period of time, but a completely imaginary and hypothetical period of time whilst the project is ongoing. It’s an estimated period of time from the programme, it’s an informed guess. When the project is complete you may be able to demonstrate that it never actually existed at all. It is a time period on a piece of paper called the programme, but what about if the programme is wrong or changes as it inevitably does.
I believe the project owns the float, but what is it the project owns - a hypothetical period of time that allows events to occur without causing delay, either to subsequent activities or to the completion date, depending what float we are talking about. So is it of use to either side to own it, does it matter who owns it?
The concept of float is of great use in managing a project, especially resources, but if a delay can be demonstrated then the party suffering the delay can usually claim something. If the contractor owns the end float he claims for an EoT, if he doesn’t he claims for prolongation. If non critical events are delayed there may be the basis of a claim for disruption and or loss and expense. Ownership of float neither enhances or prevents the chances of these claims being made in most contracts.
If the baseline programme showed 10 weeks float but later in the project an updated programme shows 5 weeks due to no ones fault, (eg weather), has the owner of the float still got 10 weeks or 5 weeks now?
Except for perhaps helping the argument that if one party uses float up and then later the other party causes delay and says but for the other party’s earlier use of float we wouldn’t have caused delay, which is not often run as it is generally the case that the effect of an event is assessed when it occurred irrespective of previous events, (and not applicable to neutral events like the one above), can someone tell me why owning the float is seen to be so advantageous?
- 0Nestor Principe ·Hi Andrew,
Say the project is completed 10 days delay. The contractor is claiming 10 days due to fault of the client however the client reject the claim because the activity that was delayed has 10 days float.
The contractor is then exposed to LD for 10 days or get paid prolongation cost for 10 days.
Cheers.. - 0Francis Aborot ·Hi Andrew,
It is important to resolve the issue regarding the owner of the floats, even if it is theoretical in nature... Many claims in construction industry is based on actual events but performed in theoretical presentation in which if you do re-programming will give different results.
Im concern because the accumulation of floats consumption will lead to rise in resource requirements in the look ahead schedule... I know, float is not realistic... Maybe 10 days is 50 days, but the science community dedicated their time to explain to us because it is important...It is a good practice to really understand, define, and use properly the tools in management from practical to theoretical....
If we define floats properly,, we will not loose anything, right?...But we will gain knowledge that maybe useful in our claim for extention of time.......
Like e = m2 and relativity sounds funny if you think... But advance science use it in a higher level project and dumping newtons law of motion as a primitive stone age theory... Now, Unified Field Theories are not being develop as of this time... Again, if somebody proves it, it will change the way we think....
Thnx and more power,
Francis
- 0Andrew Flowerdew ·Thanks Mike,
Nestor,
What Mike said is correct, but usually if the delay was the client liability and it caused delay to completion, the contractor would be due an EoT irrespective of who owned the float.
Most contracts define an entitlement to an EoT as arising when an employer or neutral delay causing delay to completion occurs. Therefore if this occurs, the contractor has a right to an EoT as the condition has been satisfied.
Francis,
I agree, but how do we define float? Ironically we all know what it is, we all use it, we all can tell at a given point in a project how long a period we think it is, etc, but if we try and expressly define it, are we just solving one argument and raising the possibility of two more with equally intangible answers?
- 0Safak Vural ·Dear Planners,
In first glance, consuming from float should never cause a time extension Claim because it will not effect the end dates (I assume). But the float is a tool which CONTRACTORS are using with some other indicators to cover their asses (I worked on CONTRACTOR side on my projects) unfortunately.
In a good construction schedule it is impossible to have 0 floats in every activity due to mathematical nature of CPM. But a good resource loaded, detailed and forecasted schedule should have smaller floats. A work should not plan to be completed at some 5 days in next 2 months. There will be a time to be planned due to procurement, crewing, QA inspections or others.
Who owns the float? I don’t know who owns the float but CLIENT will (should) emphasize and force the CONTRACTOR to have short floats and usage of early dates and resource histograms as a project progress monitoring tools at the planning & control procedures, construction schedule approval period. These items can be included in CONTRACT with the Lvl1 CCMS.
The reason to force the early dates as a target is that apart from the critical path system, item or works in locations should have an agreed completion dates apart from any contractual, cost associated and total project completion dates. There can be many commissioning activities could be done by CLIENT ‘s other subcontractors or there can be other paper work that lead a further effect on your scope that are impossible to identify at the preparation of CONTRACTORS Construction schedule. For example, the leak tests that are going to be performed by other subcontractor of your CLIENT will affect your scope as you cannot insulate the valves and fittings. Some activity you think that have floats, can be critical in reality. You cannot know until that kind of items become visible.
Somebody will show up and talk about the Everest like S-Curves because of using early data in all sort of progress monitoring. But the best schedule is which you are going to do really. If you cannot climb Everest do not plan it. The front-loaded work schedules are highly popular due to budget and early high-profit margins for some Project Managers (Management Teams). Some Project Managers (Management Teams) tends to have back-loaded programs that requires less value to earn in the start of the project to keep the relations good with the CLIENT and to hide the late mobilizations (which will occur 90%). As a CONTRACTOR you can use the late dates as the indicators of critical areas.
Mainly CLIENT wants mitigations from you for being late from dates and progresses. You can use the early S-Curve as a B item indicator for mitigations and late S-Curve as A item indicator which are critical and probably will effect end dates badly (Trends could give ideas).
When your CLIENT asks you why an equipment erection did not completed as in schedule & the inspectors from another country is coming, it is not wise to say that I have a float in my schedule that you approved.
Best Regards,
Safak - 0Mike Testro ·Hi Safak
You say that you have been a planner for 2 - 7 years.
Before that you must have gained a lot of experience in your field by actually building things.
You say that if you "can’t climb everest don’t plan to" which is the same philosphy that I have been trying to promote since I started with PP.
I agree with all your points except one.
If you know that there is going to be a test period carried out by another sub contractor - but you do not know how long - then fill the gap between "ready for valve lagging" and the latest date for "start valve lagging" with an activity called "valve testing by others".
This will put the clients work firmly in the middle of the critical path and it will sharpen his attention.
When the testing is done put the actual duration in place.
This will either give you more float or demonstrate delay.
Please let us have more input on other threads.
Best regards
Mike Testro - 0Safak Vural ·Dear Mike,
Your suggestions is completely correct. It is needed to be detailed and pointed at the schedule if we are aware of what is going to be happen. The Critical point about that subject is (Maybe I cannot explain clearer) that majority of the times planning of testing, comm. or inspections will be prepared nearly 50% of the system completions so the CLIENT always will use the early dates as their own subc.&procurement schedule, so as a CONTRACTOR we should not depend on floats and plan our works according to that.
Apart from all, I am a fresh collegue of yours, I will try to learn and share from/with all of you here.
Best Regards,
Safak - 0Ahmed Elassal ·
I agree with the openion
I agree with the openion saying that the project own the float who ever consume it has it . the counter side has not any right to claim any thing towrd him . - Any schedule approved become part of the contract and taken in account during any claim/ disput raised between the project participator . - 0Patrick Weaver ·
Float is not real – it did
Float is not real – it did not exist in any contract before 1957 and has limited use.
If you want to understand ‘float’ see: Calculating and Using Float @ http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/PDF/Schedule_Float.pdf and more importantly:
Float - Is It Real? @ http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/Resources_Papers_043.html
As my colleague Earl Glenwright, PE, PSP often reminds me, there is an Eastern Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania Dutch) saying that is very applicable to the misunderstanding and use of ‘float’
"As you travel on thru life brother
Whatever be your goal,
Keep your eye upon the donut
And not upon the hole"And so it is with ‘float’. Practical schedulers keep their focus on working the plan, not the ‘float’.
- 0Danya Pearce ·
IMO (and I have read all your
IMO (and I have read all your politically correct statements which unfortunately dont always work with scheming contractors or bullying Clients):
Float belongs to the person who hides it best
:)
Mohammed, I have worked on both sides of the fence and i have to say, unless you can prove that the contractor will miss the contract milestone, you shouldnt penalise him but rather order him / her (as i am a woman :)) to accelerate or mitigate the lost time (throw more resources at the job or bring on a seperate subbie to do that work etc). You may have to pay for it, but that is something you have to negotiate (who's at fault etc). I would look at your contract which will discuss EOT and costs.
- 0Mike Testro ·
Hi Danya Thank you for a
Hi Danya
Thank you for a blast of fresh air into an old and rather stale debate.
There are of course many methods of hiding float and in my careerr as a delay analyst I have invented some and discovered a lot of others.
Purely in the interests of research what is your preferred method of hiding float so no one can find it?
Best regards
Mike Testro
- 0Eddy San Gabriel ·
Hi Guys, I am new in this
Hi Guys,
I am new in this site. I never thought a site like this actually exist. and it feels good.. because most of the time projects here in the Philippines only have one planner in a project. And i have no one to talk on matters in planning and scheduling. Specially if your counter part in the contractor side don't know how to speak English(pure chinese who needs interpreter).
Anyway, I am a Planner by accident, because our planner suddenly took another job. And I filled the shoes. Nevertheless, I had always been in Project Management, Project Coordination and Control. Also taking up Master's degree in Management.
Eventhough Primavera is just a tool, its was hard to start . Started from scratch a year ago (with no formal training), and as of now i feel im doing progress. But I have no one to compare with.
That's why I hope i can learn much from here.
First: On the issue of Floats;
As i could remeber there are two floats: Total float and Free Float, we all know the meaning of each float.
So, Who owns the float?
For me being part of the agreement between two contracting parties, each parties are entitled to the float. that is why we have a claims analysis to determine who cause the delay in the first place (which also translate to the usage of float).
For some, they will just divide the float by two, for the owner and the contarctor, lets face it both parties affects the delay in a project one way or another.
It is previously metioned that we should look on the work plan, well i would also prefer it that way (crushing the activity if possible) but because of financial contraints contarctors would mostlikely use the floats without acquirng delays (idealistically).
But Floats are not very useful specially when the critical path changes from time to time. this is why using floats should be controlled.
I hope that my answers would help.
Also I hope you guys would be helpful for issues i might raise.. more power to all.
- 0Eddy San Gabriel ·
Hi Guys, I am new in this
Hi Guys,
I am new in this site. I never thought a site like this actually exist. and it feels good.. because most of the time projects here in the Philippines only have one planner in a project. And i have no one to talk on matters in planning and scheduling. Specially if your counter part in the contractor side don't know how to speak English(pure chinese who needs interpreter).
Anyway, I am a Planner by accident, because our planner suddenly took another job. And I filled the shoes. Nevertheless, I had always been in Project Management, Project Coordination and Control. Also taking up Master's degree in Management.
Eventhough Primavera is just a tool, its was hard to start . Started from scratch a year ago (with no formal training), and as of now i feel im doing progress. But I have no one to compare with.
That's why I hope i can learn much from here.
First: On the issue of Floats;
As i could remeber there are two floats: Total float and Free Float, we all know the meaning of each float.
So, Who owns the float?
For me being part of the agreement between two contracting parties, each parties are entitled to the float. that is why we have a claims analysis to determine who cause the delay in the first place (which also translate to the usage of float).
For some, they will just divide the float by two, for the owner and the contarctor, lets face it both parties affects the delay in a project one way or another.
It is previously metioned that we should look on the work plan, well i would also prefer it that way (crushing the activity if possible) but because of financial contraints contarctors would mostlikely use the floats without acquirng delays (idealistically).
But Floats are not very useful specially when the critical path changes from time to time. this is why using floats should be controlled.
I hope that my answers would help.
Also I hope you guys would be helpful for issues i might raise.. more power to all.
- 0Sitansh Desai ·
Ownership of float is always
Ownership of float is always a question of debate. Everyone wants to ownthe float. Float ownership depends purely on contract specification and if the specs are silent, float should be either used by the one who use it first (first come first serve) or 50-50.
For new contracts, prior to signing the contract agreement, the ownership of the float should be identified in contract specs.
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