MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
In the Open Standard
David BordoliMember for 24 years 6 months
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I read with interest the previous discussion regarding MSP –v- P3 (I couldn’t reply on that thread for some reason).
I have recently become embroiled a little in this debate when discussing the merits (?) of MSP when a colleague said :
Touching on the future, we need to be aware that MSoft has done a licensing deal with the UK government on all its products, and I am now beginning to see public sector clients requesting programmes in MSP. This wont go away of course, so is there a simple way forward?
This all came about because MSoft have dropped the .mpx format that was used by many software developers as a relatively simple way of allowing data to be transferred between different project management software. Our dilemma was that, as users of Asta Powerproject, MSP files were inaccessible and we didn’t want to regress to using MSP in parallel.
I spoke to the friendly people at Asta (try doing that with MSoft!) and their reply was:
I also know that we live in Microsoft world and they have made life a little more difficult by allowing MPX import, but disabling MPX export from MSP 2000/2003. So you can send someone a project from Powerproject in an MPX format - and they can open it. They cant send it back though!
So for that reason we have developed (and give away) an Add-In to Powerproject and MS Project that reads & writes to a common XML file format.
I have asked our Help Desk to put on a CD and send to you. You can freely distribute this within Buro4 and its clients.
We were also discussing ‘Programme Management’ (as in the management of a portfolio of projects:
We [Asta] have been very successful recently with various collection of projects in a single database - to allow cross-project reporting. This is where Powerproject scores over MS Project as it is essentially a collection of dispersed projects, rather than a coherent whole. The only really serious completion is P3e, but it is at least 3-times more expensive than PP! For this to work effectively we developed Asta Site Progress - for remote (cheap) progress feedback.
The final comment was:
Even in MSP 2003 they have the fantastic fundamental flaw of only allowing one link between two tasks. ie you cannot have a SS and FF between the same tasks - so once one has started there are no restraints! The output is also pretty poor, and of course only one task per line, etc...
My apologies if this has sounded like an advertisement for Asta Powerproject but I think we should all be aware there is useful project management software around other than P3 and MSP!
Asta Developments can be contacted at Asta Developments
Regards
David
dbordoli@burofour.co.uk
To find out mor about Buro Four visit us on the web
I have recently become embroiled a little in this debate when discussing the merits (?) of MSP when a colleague said :
Touching on the future, we need to be aware that MSoft has done a licensing deal with the UK government on all its products, and I am now beginning to see public sector clients requesting programmes in MSP. This wont go away of course, so is there a simple way forward?
This all came about because MSoft have dropped the .mpx format that was used by many software developers as a relatively simple way of allowing data to be transferred between different project management software. Our dilemma was that, as users of Asta Powerproject, MSP files were inaccessible and we didn’t want to regress to using MSP in parallel.
I spoke to the friendly people at Asta (try doing that with MSoft!) and their reply was:
I also know that we live in Microsoft world and they have made life a little more difficult by allowing MPX import, but disabling MPX export from MSP 2000/2003. So you can send someone a project from Powerproject in an MPX format - and they can open it. They cant send it back though!
So for that reason we have developed (and give away) an Add-In to Powerproject and MS Project that reads & writes to a common XML file format.
I have asked our Help Desk to put on a CD and send to you. You can freely distribute this within Buro4 and its clients.
We were also discussing ‘Programme Management’ (as in the management of a portfolio of projects:
We [Asta] have been very successful recently with various collection of projects in a single database - to allow cross-project reporting. This is where Powerproject scores over MS Project as it is essentially a collection of dispersed projects, rather than a coherent whole. The only really serious completion is P3e, but it is at least 3-times more expensive than PP! For this to work effectively we developed Asta Site Progress - for remote (cheap) progress feedback.
The final comment was:
Even in MSP 2003 they have the fantastic fundamental flaw of only allowing one link between two tasks. ie you cannot have a SS and FF between the same tasks - so once one has started there are no restraints! The output is also pretty poor, and of course only one task per line, etc...
My apologies if this has sounded like an advertisement for Asta Powerproject but I think we should all be aware there is useful project management software around other than P3 and MSP!
Asta Developments can be contacted at Asta Developments
Regards
David
dbordoli@burofour.co.uk
To find out mor about Buro Four visit us on the web
96 replies
Oldest first- 0Philip Jonker ·Hi Guys,
The problem I have here is the imcopatability of software products. P3 is the industry standard, and as such any product, that is launched or sold, should be able to interact, or be converted to the same format. If your are pepsi, and your are trying to steal market share from coca cola, you go out and find out what everybody likes about coke. If you are Excel you make sure you can open any file format. The problem here seems to be marketing niches, ie cheap vs expensive, or can it do the job, what does the client want. Open plan has not been mentioned, but I believe they have a good product, however, they also seem to have their niche. It seems the software industry has a problem, they are giving what they seem to think what we need, rather than asking the users.
Regards - 0Daya Sugunasingha ·Hi
It is sad and perhaps a little arrogant for a software company not to care about its users, but I suspect that they have done their homework and the necessary market research and have come to the conclusion that more of their users want the graphic interface rather the old tabular interface.
Regards
Daya - 0Alex Wong ·Dear All,
I can understand why Primavera do not want to answer every questions in PP in related to P3 products. If they do, we will have the impression of they are try to selling their product and being baise. But, I do noticed that Primavera do have people constantly looking at this forum to look for product development and improvement. Like UNDO, Past Period Performance, Stack Histogram ... these are functions that we PPers been asking for and which they delivered (or at least under their latest version development).
It is difficult for a person selling the software and at the same time to promote the software in a forum like this.
Everyone will question whether there is a conflict of interest. At least I questioned several times, in related to "OPEN PLAN" and "SPIDER PROJECT"
Philip - in relate to you posting where software is only a tool. I strongly agree that, the person driving the tool is more important than the tools itself. But if you put a F1 race driver in a 1970’s family car, he/she can only do limited things with that car. Therefore, sometime we do need the right tools for the right job. MSP - to me is a family car where P3 is more like a F1.
Cheers
Alex
- 0Vladimir Liberzon ·Alex,
you are right about the problems of participating in PP discussions for those who produce PM software. Even when they write about the approaches people may think that they are trying to promote the software. I am afraid that this problem is a communication barrier that restricts both parties.
Regards,
Vladimir - 0Darrell ODea ·Bill,
Well said. Couldn’t agree more.
P3 is consistint at the very least & reliability is taken for granted. And out performs most other Planning or PM tools. The initial cost may seem preclusive, but long term,
P3 don’t need or seem to change much.
Much of the competition are still trying to catch up with P3. In my humble opinion, have been spending the last 3 to 5 years trying to re-engineer their own software to suit, and have not quite hit the nail on the head. Thus revision on revision on revision add nausium. This is of course only my opinion.
Darrell - 0David Bordoli ·Hi all
I have been on holiday and am now wading through my emails and PP postings.
I love this debate, even though I am not sure if it ever goes anywhere or even changes anyone’s minds about the ‘best’ software.
I was interested in a comment Philip made (03 August)
”P3 is the industry standard”
and Bill’s comment (09 August)
”Time and Time again since 1986, P3 has proved to be the best support tool for Construciton Planning” .
Despite those who think I am an advocate for a particular software (I regularly use P3, Powerproject and MSP) I try to remain objective. Previously I have made reference to independent research data on the popularity and functionality of various software. Do you, Philip and Bill, have any data to support your views or are they a reflection of your preference. I think also that there are some geographical biases here too with Philip being I Africa, Bill in the Americas and Daya in Europe – I am thinking maybe that what is the ‘industry standard’ in the US might not be the ‘industry standard’ in the UK.
[Passage deleted by Moderator.]
Best regards
David
ps. As usual apologies if this message offends anyone.
- 0Philip Jonker ·Hi David,
Unfortunately, the UK does not set the industry standard, and furthermore, I and not bound to one country, as I have worked in multiple countries, and so have Bill Guthrie. If you look at the majority of jobs in the UK they are rail related, or as it is normally called by pundits, permanent way. In South Africa we can fit fit England into the Kruger National Park, and it is a nature reserve. The days of the BS standards are gone, these days there are things lik ISO. Unfortunately for you 70% of the serious planners use P3 and are happy with it, and the answers it gives, we might not be happy with the backup from Primevera bur the software in general i OK. Give us something simular, with improvements, and we will be happier - 0Alex Wong ·Dear All
My suggestion is if the PP admin can have result analysis from the voting page for best planning software in terms of their functionality. We can then see comparison between MSP P3 and Powerproject. Of course no of people fill in the survey will be different but at least we will have an indicator the comparison between these softwares.
Cheers
Alex - 0David Bordoli ·Dear All, (Bill and Philip and Alex in particular)
I can’t recall what I must have said in the final paragraph of my posting such that it was deleted – I do try not to be offensive.
Believe me… I am not disputing anything that has been said in favour of P3 et al, or even MSP, all I was asking is has anyone got any independent data on this discussion to back up the claims that are being made?
As for ‘industry standard’, I don’t think I suggested that the UK (or the US or anywhere else for that matter) was the arbiter. All I was trying to say is that some software is more prevalent in some countries than others. I am sure I have said it before but I don’t think software should be an issue; it’s the planning, programming and communication that are important.
There was a slight problem with the original ‘sign-in survey’ in that it did not feature some software. Gary wrote about that in his first posting on the Forum (see here).
Regards
David
- 0Andrew Flowerdew ·All,
This probably should go in another section but as it seems we have a lively debate here I’ll put it here!
P3 in my opinion was definitely more reliable than PowerProject - However, I do not see anyone in the P3 camp now questioning the reliability of P3e/c or even prepared to talk about it’s faults.
NO software company, have ever switched from from one operating system to another and not had problems - Microsoft themselves even can’t do it on thier own operating systems!. The product comes out, bugs are found and the usual patches, hotfixes, updates and service packs follow. Unless Primavera has done the seemingly impossible and certainly a world first -produced a new and bug free software package- then I’m sure there are issues with P3e/c which no one in the P3 camp seems willing to own up to.
This does give the impression of P3 followers seeing only what they want, blindly following the marketing hype, thier ’god’ can do no wrong!
P3 and PowerProject are both extremely good pieces of software. MSP has it’s uses. If each do what you need them to do then all are sufficient for your purpose, even MSP! You might get the impression I don’t rate MSP and you’d be right, but as a product for the mass market it does what it does at a reasonable price and you can’e expect it to compete with the specialist software.
But if we must debate which is ’best’, can we have a reality check, P3 users take thier heads out of the sand, both sides actually think about how many of all those wonderfull must have functions they actually use from day to day and come to a more considered conclusion than one based on blind loyalty. - 0Philip Jonker ·Hi guys,
My evening at home. I agree this is a good discussion, and maybe should be changed to what does the industry require, and not bull versus the real thing. The challenge is there, and I have been laying the gauntlet down for a while, challenge P3 and they have to respond, it is like lotus, you can still find lotus help when you work with excel.
Inappropiate text deleted by moderator. - 0Philip Jonker ·Hi Ken,
Have no problem with power project, however, what is it? If it is anything like MSP, let it ride. The point is that in the accounting discipline or data management, programs talk to each other. Why do we have this major problem in planning, where it becomes a crusade to switch from one software to another, surely if you buy a pint of milk, from different dairies it is milk, despite the fact they treat their milk in different ways.
Whether you have excel, lotus or any of the spreadsheets, you can view files written in whatever, however, in planning the software companies rule. The question is are they not capable of competing on the same platform, in other words, are we to be bound to some particular software, despite our own prefences.
Regards - 0Alexandre Faulx-Briole ·Philip,
Why don’t you use XML format to exchange files between PM apps?
P3 is too old a software to know about it, and Microsoft has killed MPX format long ago.
PP8, MS Project and Sciforma Project Scheduler 8.5 easily exchange schedule files using XML.
Have you ever tried reading a multi-sheet Lotus 123 file with Excel? This so-called standard spreadsheet application simply does not read multi-sheet files.
All the best - 0Daya Sugunasingha ·Hi Guys
The best software for you is the software that you are most familiar with. This is because you know how it works, its strengths and weaknesses and you work around it to output the required result.
The best software for the project is the software that does the job best for that project but producing all that is required of it. This is because some software packages are better at doing some things better then others are. Tools are not universally applicable to all tasks, i.e. use a hammer to drive a nail and a screwdriver to screw in a screw, even though you could use the hammer.
Regards
Daya
- 0Andrew Flowerdew ·Hi all,
I’m staying neutral in this debate as I used both P3 and PP and like them both but a few posts have just reinforced my thoughts that P3 lovers are supporting it out of nothing but loyalty -
quote "have no problem with powerproject, however, what is it"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on P3 users, if you’re going to make a valid comment at least know what your talking about - sorry Philip it was a quote from you but it nicely encapsulates the jist of a few others. - 0Ken Brown ·I can’t help but agree with you Andrew. Much of the ’debate’ since the beginning of this thread can be summed up as "I use P3, I like it and I don’t care about any other software". Don’t get me wrong - if someone is that happy with what they’ve got then there is nothing wrong with that view as far as I am concerned. I think this thread started as a discussion about the pros and cons of three different brands of software. I’m not sure that some of us have experience of actually using all three. Am I wrong?
- 0Philip Jonker ·Hi Clive,
You stated the situation rather eloquently. But twenty years is not that long ago. Open plan version 4 did the job, but Bill Gates developed windows for brain dead people, and we all had to follow suit. I doubt if ten percent of the members of pp can use dos or dbase. The point is that before computors existed, planning was part of project management, and people still know how to draw plans (barcharts) on the back of cigarette boxes. The program does not matter, can it do the job?????????????????????? - 0Charleston-Joseph Orbe ·Hello,
I’ll stick with P3, P3 is for brainy people, it develop critical thinking, hallmark of true planners/planning engineer, IMHO.
MSP is also good if you are paid very high salary by the client for the rubbish your giving them. Why fight for P3 if Primavera will not increase your salary. No Point.
Powerproject, I dont know. I wish they have free download for testing purposes and also evaluation.
Have a nice day to all PP. Charlie - 0Pmkb . ·If those of you with experience using P3, MSP and/or Powerproject (or any other software) would care to write a short review at the PMKB (you will need to register [free] first), the review engine would be able to provide a nice summary of the membership’s opinions.
Stacy
Participate in the Project Management Knowledge Base! - 0David Bordoli ·Charlie...
I am suprised that, as you consider yourself to be one of the brainy people who can use P3 your critical thinking hasn’t led you to the Asta website (www.astadev.com) where you can request a fully funtioning evaluation copy of Powerproject - which includes, for dummies who can’t be bothered to look at its features, a nice ’virtual’ walkthrough at the beginning.
Apologioes for my harsh response but uninformed responses on a Monday morning I can do without!
Regards
David - 0Charleston-Joseph Orbe ·Hi David,
Thanks for the advise.
I do plan to dig deeper whatever I can get hold from advice like you and others from PP. But ...
Now im very busy.
For the future, i do wanted to experience spider, also Asta if there is free download. Sorry i really dont have the money to feel and experience all the planning software englighten or reveal in PP. I rely on free download. 500 USD is a big money for me, 5,000 USD i can buy a car, so planning software is in the bottom of my budget.
Thanks for the advice.
Cheers,
Charlie
- 0David Bordoli ·Charlie (and Clive)
I think I am missing something here?
You say that P3 develops critical thinking but then you say critical thinking could be anything. In trying to understand what you are saying about the benefits of using P3, does it mean, in your humble opinion that P3 develops anything, or something, depending on how the individual experiences it? Can’t that be said of virtually everything and, in my humble opinion, citing it as a reason for using a particular piece of project management software is somewhat vacuous?
However, may I refer you to http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT/definingCT.shtml for a more considered definition of critical thinking. Here is an extract:
The Problem:
Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.
A Definition:
Critical thinking is that mode of thinking - about any subject, content, or problem - in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and imposing intellectual standards upon them.
The Result:
A well cultivated critical thinker:
raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely;
gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;
thinks open-mindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognising and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.
Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcome our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.
Regards
David
- 0Darrell ODea ·Charlie & Clive,
I think ye are both 100% right in what yea are saying.
If nothing else, just to accencuate (whatever that means) the arguements.
In that whatever you think, be it critical or non-critical, you would be correct in thinking that, because that is right for you/ye in your thinking etc.
Am I making myself clear??
Best wishes,
Darrell
- 0Charleston-Joseph Orbe ·Hi Darell,
Crystal
Clear as a crystal ball.
MSP, P3, Powerproject develop critical thinking.
The only difference is the degree of development...
and P3 leads to advance stage in the development of critical thinking.
MSP very minimal approaching to zero, powerproject - maybe a little bit higher than MSP but not in the class of P3.
Cheers
Charlie - 0David Bordoli ·Charlie
I am amazed that you are so forthright in your view of Powerporoject when, by your own admission, you have never used it!
One of the problems with thinking (see my previous post) is:
"Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life.
I propose we try to advise and comment on the things we know about, and not pass judgement on the things we are ignorant of.
Regards
David
- 0David Bordoli ·Darell…
May I reply on Charlie’s behalf?
A Critical Tinker is:
A traveling mender of metal household utensils who moans a lot.
A Logical Tinker is:
A traveling mender of metal household utensils who is capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner.
All clear now?
Regards
David
- 0Darrell ODea ·David,
That is a bit strong, in my view.
Perhaps this could be thought in another way.
Maybe what you might define as "Shoddy Thinking" (Whateverdatis), is another persons (political correctness), Critical Thinking.
It twould b grate 4 all f we were all the same & tought da same way, woodint it??
Respect,
Darrell
ps. I am none to impressed with PP/TP developments, and I have used it since 1988 (When it was good, in my opinion).
pps. liked ure tinker response, well tought out.
ppps. I 4 one, would not dare to advise anyone, am not qualified to give advise. - 0David Bordoli ·Darrell
What I, and others, were asking Charlie was “what is critical thinking”. The response he gave was far from clear, and was difficult for me to see how using P3 developed his definition of critical thinking. I then tried to help by giving a more considered view of what critical thinking might be.
However, Charlie’s response was again to pass an opinion (and a relatively damning one) about something that he has no experience of. As Charlie believes himself to be a critical thinker I merely cited some of the problems of shoddy thinking (definition: of poor quality). In my humble opinion, giving advice and opinions about something one knows little about results in poor quality advice and poor quality opinion.
I am sorry that you thought my comments were a bit strong, and I have no idea where political correctness comes into this. This thread has been characterised by robust opinion but very little factual supporting evidence.
Regards
David
- 0Charleston-Joseph Orbe ·Hello David,
I’m not really a native born english but then, only english know the english language, the rest pretend to know the english language. It is for this reason that we have American english, Australian english, Irish english, etc, etc,.
I can’t understand your definition of critical thinking.
So critical thinking is only for those who experience critical thinking. I leave it to you on whatever you want to say, my only wish is for you to experience critical thinking.
You can try Primavera P3 and in the event you reach the xanadu of critical thinking, please let us know in PP.
Cheers,
Charlie
- 0David Bordoli ·Charlie… you are wearing me down…
As I have stated endlessly I do not think there is such thing as the ‘best’ software. There are too many factors to consider. I appreciate there may be a favourite software – but I think that is more to do with familiarity with the product than anything else.
For the record, I regularly use Primavera, MS Project and Powerproject. The primary reason for which one I chose is what software was the original programme I am working on produced in and does my client have any preferences.
Unfortunately, even though I use P3 I have not yet reached the ‘xanadu of critical thinking’. I guess that must be because when I use MSP and Powerproject my senses get dulled.
I was not intending to criticise you use of the English language (after all it is the only one I know) but to question your view of critical thinking and why you think only P3 can reach the parts that other software cannot. Also, the definition I gave was not mine, as I said, but that of ‘The Critical Thinking Community’ whom I assume have put a lot of critical thought into their definition.
I also like your implied assumption that I am not a critical thinker, what ever one of those is (that, by the way, was a sarcastic comment).
Regards
David
- 0Darrell ODea ·David,
Who/whom are these "Critical Tinkers" you speak of?
Are they the Gods of Criticality? (whatever dat means).
Anyway, all any software does is "Critical Path or Chain Analysis". Does "Thinking" come into it, on the part of the software package?
Perhaps another question for another day.
And P3 in my opinion is still the best thus far.
Of course of MSP & PP/TP do somethink different, then being the fickle person that I am, will soon change my mind.
All the best,
Darrell.
ps. No disrespect to God or Gods intended, to be sure, to be sure. - 0Alex Wong ·David
Sometime it is very difficult to teach a old dog with new tricks. And some of us (planner) are very attached to particular software that you have to understand. That will cause a blind eyes to everything else, however it is very hard for the person / us to admit.
And sometime people claim they know the software because they went to a conference or see the demo or play around the software for couple of hrs and found that it is not exactly the same as what they use to. Then they will come to a conclusion that the software is not good.
During your discussion I can see some of it already. And I had the similar experience with some of the PPs in the forum.
What we have to do is to understand and respect their way of thinking. And agree to disagree.
Good Luck and keep planning
Cheers
Alex
- 0David Bordoli ·Clive
I am in complete agreement!
This thread has lost its way and is long past it’s respond by date – I suggest (being the starter of the thread) that the moderators now close it for further discussion.
There must be an opportunity to discuss the merits of software after all they are the tools we use… in the same way that joiners will discuss the merits of Spear & Jackson –v- Stanley. What I had hoped for when starting this thread was some critical discussion and factual stuff rather than “X is best ‘cos I always use it, so there”. I am afraid this thread has generated a lot of heat but no light.
Whilst in general I welcome expression of opinion, even those who resort to uniformed comment must realise worthlessness of such statements and, more importantly, the potential dangers that can cause in an information led society. And that has nothing to do with one’s native language or culture!
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, this is my last posting on the subject!
Regards
David
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