Democracy vs Totalitaranism

Philip, any posts which are in violation of the forum rules may be edited or deleted as appropriate. If you are finding that your posts are being censored, I would suggest you consider how they violated the forum rules first.

The moderators (including the PP Admin) are saving and reviewing posts which are edited and/or deleted. I can assure you that there is no "cowboy" moderator with an agenda against you.

Bernard Ertl
eTaskMaker Project Planning Software

I totally disagree with Philip. In contrast to what he has opinionated, I express my gratitude and appreciation in putting together a great web-site like this as follows -

1. By allowing a free discussion forum within the normal constraints of proffessionalism and decency, the Planning Planet team has set an example of righteous democracy. Also, by establishing a web-site such as this, all frontiers have been erased and, "Planning is just a Click away"!

2. The fundamental principles of Freedom of Speech / Expression is encouraged here. This does not mean the web-site users have the right to abuse the Freedom of Speech / Expression of others. The PP team understands this and has laid down certain norms or rules to aviod misuse or abuse. Also, knowledge and experiance sharing is allowed but not misused / abused.

3. Planning is surely for "Thninkers". But, thinking is not necessarily limited to planning. You cannot put whatever you think here in this forum.

4. All Moderators do have names. It would be appreciable if the PP Admin highlights how Moderators are elected / nominated.

5. And, if somebody is not satisfied with the proceedings of this planet, he / she has all right to refrain from any involvement here (democratically speaking).

6. PP, KEEP IT UP!

Rgds,

p.s. - Have I appreciated u guys too much?

This sentence is comprehensive in its meanings:

"if somebody is not satisfied with the proceedings of this planet, he / she has all right to refrain from any involvement here."

So no further comments.

Hi Guys,

I agree completely with Vishwas and Shahzad. Any democracy has to have standards to indicate whether remarks or actions are acceptable or unacceptable. In society these are laws, in this forum they are the rules and guidelines.

The moderators who uphold these rules and guidelines have a pretty thankless task which, from what I have seen, they perform firmly without being heavy-handed, and impartially. I am extremely grateful to them for their hard work in a task which must at times be rather irksome and frustrating.

Chris Oggham

I agree with the majority, an even and reasonable hand is used by the moderators for the benefit of all.

As for the case Philip quotes (protected job) - I think the moderators should send him his comments as his thoughts are not quite my recollection of the events.

Hi guys,

You which all agree, to back totalirinism, why are you not talking about Robert Mugabe for instance? You guys talk about disagreeing with me, and are all in agreement with dictatorshop, however you have been proven wrong by the world at large. You claim to be some of the important minds is the world, however you disregard the worlds problems. Think for yourselves and stand by your ideas, I am not a Maoist or some radical thinker, just plainly a democratic person. It is interesting to see the reactions I elicited. You guys need to think a bit, as it seems you don’t.

Regards
Philip

Hi Vishwas,

[edited by moderator]

As for you Andrew,

[edited by moderator]

As for you Ogham,

[edited by moderator]

As for you Bernhardt,

[edited by moderator]

It is interesting what is going on in the world, obviously you guys and the moderators are not following it.

I will shut up the day you are up to speed on all the issues, and will not be silenced by uneducated moderators, who do not have the decency to put their names to the deletions,

Obviously, I am open to attack, but that does not mean I am wrong.

Where is the justice, Juries consist of peers, normally more than ten of them, and not one dictator (Moderator) who is somebody who does not have to give his name or credentials. Maybe the moderator is one of those who flew over the Cuckoo’s nest, or just some plain idiot who got in at the right time?

Delete this at your peril:-)

Democracy is the best that the world was able to come up. It is in our human heart, our desire for freedom. In the exercise of democracy, we have to be responsible and considerate with others feeling and rights for democracy. Some norms, policy, procedures must be in place to protect democracy that we treasure in our hearts. We must ensure that in the exercise of individual democratic rights, such actions shall not trample on others who also wish to exercise their individual democratic rights.

Philip,

I know we’ve had our differences in the past, but please believe me when I say that no-one is putting you on trial; there is no jury. The sole purpose of the Moderators is to ensure that the rules of the forum and guidelines for posts are followed. They have to ensure that people using the forum are not offended by anything posted on the forum, which of course means that sometimes they have to edit or delete posts.

There are some people who, having had a post edited or deleted, would react unfavourably and, if the Moderator’s identity was known, would attack them through the forum or the Private Mail facility. This means, however, that to avoid this possibility, the Moderator who edits or deletes a post must remain anonymous.

If a post is edited or deleted, I don’t believe that that is the end of it. I’m sure that a Private Mail (sent through PP Admin perhaps) explaining what was really meant could result in the post being reinstated with a suitably amended wording. What won’t do any good, though is saying the Moderators are uneducated, or calling them idiots, nor will saying they are not up to speed on all issues. Moderators necessarily have to confine themselves to the primary focus of the forum, Project/Programme Planning and Management issues.

You are obviously a man with far-ranging interests, and perhaps the scope of this forum is too restricted to cover all the subjects you want to discuss. You may find the URL below of some interest as it is one of a number of associated forums covering just about any subject you can think of.

http://moncom.net/moncomworldevents.asp

Chris Oggham

Hi Chris,

Your comments are greatly appreciated, as this is the point I was trying to raise is open discussion within the forum, Why are "WE" discussing only the smaller issues in the world? After all we are the planners! There is something fatalistic here.
Pro-activity is the answer. Take a step back, and think about Napoleon Bonaparte, and his achievements, at the end of the day NIL.
What is your dream in life? And ask yourself this question.
Do you know of the relationshio between Beethoven and Napoleon? And the end of the relationdhip?
If you do not know the answers admit it, however, if you do carry on with the comments.

Charlestone JO,
Your reply was great, and kick ass in this discussion. Come lets give them helll

Philip,

Well I have to admit I don’t know about the relationship between Napoleon and Beethoven or the end of it - and if I die not knowing, I don’t think I’ll lose any sleep between now and then.

I do know about the job I have to get up and do on Monday morning however, so I’ll concentrate on that and get that bit of life right before worrying about the rest.

Hi Andrew,
If you do not understand the mistakes of the past, how do you want to plan the future?

Hi Andrew, you seem tto suffer from tunnel vision

Hi Philip,

I agree we all need to learn from past mistakes, our own and that of others - and partly this is what this forum allows us to do.

If you would please elaborate further on Napoleon and Beethoven so that I might be able to use it’s relevance in my work I’d be very gratefull.

Hi Philip,
I also like to know, why must Napoleon and Beethoven?, Why not Hitler and Michael Angelo......this is somthing intresting and make me think....why?
regards

Hi guys,

Do you know that Napoleon was a product of the French Revolution. And..

the French Revolution produce the Declaration of RIGHT OF MAN. And..

The Rights of Man produce some sort of relevance to the topic at hand as quoted

"4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law."

I hope this will ring bells.

Guess that depend what country you live in!

Charleston,

The rights of the individual may be a wonderfull thing to debate but have nil relevance to any rights that may exist between parties to a construction contract.

Hi Charleston,

A man after my own heart, ie yo have cojones.

Hi Raja,

Beethoven and Napoleon met, and had democracy as a mutual understanding at the time. There was no way Hitler and Michaelangelo could have met as the were hundreds of years apart. You have to understand history, and get a grasp of the timeline, to get your mind into perspective.

Hi, Andrew,

The perspective on Napoleon and Beethoven, is that Napoleon was probably the best planner ever, however, he needed a person to control him. Beethoven understood him well, in the democracy he was trying to gring to it’s feet. Can you imagine something like trying to bring democracy to the world, and the downtrodden masses still being used as peons to fight you, what is the point, whoever you are, you need to go back and rethink, unfortunately, Napoleon declared himself the Emporor, and spoilt his friendship with Beethoven. The whole matter revolves around conviction, to what you are trying to achieve, and therein lies the answer!

Philip,

Napoloen the best ever planner - um, I believe he lost in the end - so someone did their planning better!

Good planning gets the end result - Napoleon failed to get the end result he was seeking.

The word democracy taken from the Greek word (Greek demos,”the people”; kratein, “to rule”), Democracy started in Ancient Greece then traveled to Ancient Rome. Democracy survived the “Dark Ages”, survived absolute monarchy and other form of government that degraded humanity.

In the 20th century we saw the birth of Nazism and the establishment of the Third Reich, Totalitarian German State. In addition, we saw the rise and fall of communism.

When I was in college way back in 1983, my professor predicted the downfall of communism. He based his prediction from history: no form of government that curtailed liberty, freedom and degraded humanity will survive. Communism in the former USSR did fall in August 1991.

I believe long time ago that democracy will last forever because it is in the human heart to be free. As one immortal said: GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.

Look at the birds, they are free to fly wherever they want to go. Humans also long to be free and to fly wherever they want to go.

Bill,

Excuse the late reply, but in "The States" you can end up on an island, with no god given right, with you right to any rights taken away, never mind free speech.

Personally, true freedom is within the individual.
It is not awarded by a state or government.

Even as you have quoted - Pat Henry (whomever he is), might I suggest is referring to himself, that he would choose death over not being liberated. But was liberated within, as this is what gives him "True" freedom, albeit freedom of speech.

Being able or being allowed to say what you want, does not mean that you are free, well in my opinion.

Respect,
And no disrespect intended.
Darrell

Darrell,

You have a very good point, in no state anywhere are we ’free’, just more ’free’ in some than others.

Hi Andrew,

Napoleon never lost, he made a comeback like Muhammed Ali, the point is actually, that nobody actually knows what his goals were. I have spent quite a bit of time on the subject, a still cant figure out what Napoleon was up to.

The closest assumption I can make was that initially he was overtaken by a democratic fervour, and a while later he realised the armies (people ie the plebs)he was defending the the people who was keeping them in slavery. He then made a decission, to declare himself an Emporer (Dictator) and keep on with the fight for democracy. He was never truly defeated and will be remembered for his role in the fight for democracy. However, he pissed Beethoven off with his Emporer move.

Darrell,

As an Irishman,it surprises me that you do not know of Patrick Henry, this was a politician of note in America, with simular ideas to most of your countrymen. I hope you do not think Paul Revere is a cigarette. Henry coined the words, "Give me liberty or give me death", theay got so pissed off the threw all the English tea into Boston harbour. This resulted in a war where they kicked the english’s butts.

An interesting point is that the first so-called democracy was Scotland, and then France. But the american Red Indians had figured it out before this, and this accelerated the american style of democracy.

Planners should be living in the future, as that is their job, however, they should rely on history to tel them how they should plan the future and avoid previous mistakes

Regards

I’m reading Michael Moore book "Dude, where’s my country?" Try to read it. I think it is about the democracy. He was able to publish it, but so what. Most of my life I worked for big companies. All over the places restrictions. Try to make a "real" schedule when you are on the contractor’s side or the client’s side. Think about the milestone contracts. Big "democracy" there too. I think we need to discuss this things among us. How to do your job without hurting anybody.
Regards Katalin

Hi,

Before Renaissance

Killing of Jesus.
Persecution of Christians.
Crusade.

After Renaissance

Imperialism and colonial rule.
Racism
Slavery.
Genocide.
Fascism.
Nazism.
Holocaust.
Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
Communism.
Apartheid
Bosnia.
Embargo.
Clash of Civilizations.

These are the hallmarks of societies which presume itself as the Inventor, Champion and Propagator of “Democracy” as if “Democracy” is end in itself for which Human Being is Created.

Moreover defeat of Napolean in Waterloo by Lord Nelson had nothing to do with “Democracy”. But with Planning a big “Yes”. It was just matter of “Fifteen minute or so” …. I forgot the detail…….


Cheers.

Philip

"An interesting point is that the first so-called democracy was Scotland"

Interesting? Well it may be an interesting claim but it’s also totally wrong.

I speak as a Scot and also a keen amateur historian.

Philip,

Politics & histo-political reference were never a strong point of mine. Am aware of some of the main historiocal events, Irish, European & World. Am certainly no historian. Perhaps there are patterns developing, in developing nations that some are loathe to notice or will not acknowledge. All nations perhaps should be developing??

Might I suggest that their is no intrinsic difference between "Democracy" and "Totalitaranism". But their is a huge difference in the application and the leadershit of any of these types of societal structures. Therein lies the issue.

They have both worked and failed at different times historically. A sudo-type-democracy seems the flavour of the day in western society, with a slight para-noia-semi-police-type-arrangement.

And in school many years ago, we were doing "Ancient History", we read and were told that the Greeks invented democracy?????? Open to re-writing or correction of course.

Might I also say the, the word "Bollocks" in Ireland is seldom taken as an insult or swear word. This is a cultural ting though, so no offence intended.

Respect,
Darrell

Hi Philip,

I did experienced some of my post deleted by miderators. I did feel edgy and same like you.

The only difference was that I always recall my previous post

(Product of the French Revolution)
"The Declaration of the Rights of Man

"4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law."

The limit in PP are the forum rules. The moderators base their actions on the forum rules.

I did not take offence on the actions by the moderator. We will just let the moderators be what they are suppose to be, anyway PP give us the chance to let us be also.

Have a nice weekend.
Charlie

Clive,

Don’t know if you were referring to Philip or myself (Darrell). You are correct I would suggest, in that point that you have just made. That this forum is titled "Democracy vs Totalitaranism" (Whatever that means), which automatically brings into play the whole "freedom of speech thing", that anyone should get moderated upon, is ironic.

Their is also another expression we have here,
its called "Cute-Hoorism".

And I actually picked it up from overhearing a politician talk. Don’t normally listen much when politicians talk, more fool me. But this expression struck a chord with me.

Does anyone know what it means? or as Planners could ye work it out?

Also remember, "Fulashite", is just an expression used in Ireland by some, to express an opinion about a feeling one has, about some of the discourse carried out by certain people. Again it is a cultural ting.

Slán go fóil,

Darrell

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4058648-102278,00.html
Haughey was the Juan Peron of Irish politics. Like the glamorous Argentinian dictator, he inspired a fanatical following with his peculiar blend of nationalist fervour, right-wing views and appeasement of powerful trade union leaders. He was master of the small political gesture - granting tax exemption to artists and free travel to retirees - and was hugely popular. He was also the supreme practitioner of the Irish political art of ’cute hoorism’ (’a clever whore’), slyly outmanoeuvring his opponents with backstage deals. He cultivated his image as the man of power, the man of decision, the very embodiment of the Irish nation.

Katalin,

Oooohhh, nicely stated, very clear defitition & analogy.

Respect,
Darrell

Another interesting explanation here:

Cute hoor
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Cute hoor is a Hiberno-English term used to describe someone who will do whatever it takes to achieve what they want. Usually a cute hoor will not break the law but it is seen as willing to bend and use the law, use people or use situations to come out on top, by pulling dishonest or misleading stunts en route.

In this context cute means cunning, and is a clipped form of acute. The word hoor (pronounced hoo-r) is based on the English word whore, but in the term cute hoor has no sexual connotations.

The term cute hoor is often used as a quasi-affectionate term, for someone whose utter unreliability and untrustworthyness is well known, seen through and treated almost as a joke. Then Irish Tánaiste Brian Lenihan was described as a cute hoor on a Late Late Show TV special about him in 1990 by some of his colleagues and friends, who recounted stories of his unreliability, including promising parents he’d get jobs for their children, then losing the piece of paper on which he’d recorded the details, or making ’spur of the moment’ promises to voters during elections that would be forgotten as quickly as they were thought of. In Lenihan’s case, his cute hoor image came back to haunt him when the question of his trustworthyness and reliability became a central issue in the 1990 presidential election, an election he sensationally lost to Mary Robinson.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cute_hoor"

Clive,

If the views of the majority were always expressed,
then what need do we have, for any form of debate or discussion?

And it is Feckan, as in feckan ejit.

All the best,

Darrell

Hello to all,

I appreciate the moderator quick actions.

This will ensure democracy will continue in PP.

Some PP becomes emotional and hinting on physical abuse towards their peers in PP.

It is the moderator sound judgement that the forum rules shalll be implemented.

LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS, the guardians of democracy in Planning Planet.

LONG LIVE, LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS.

without you democracy in PP will be curtailed.

LONG LIVE, LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS.

Cheers and Have a beautiful weekends,

From Charlie with all the blessings

Clive,

That’s a good idea; could this dictionary also include definitions for humour, humorous and po-faced as well?

Chris Oggham

Clive,
Folks,

Planning Immortals, is just begenning to kick off.
(Under improving planning planet website).

All the best,

Darrell

Hi guys

Is the originator of this thread, I hope I have a say
I believe moderation is a simple way of life
I believe that when you go the whole hog you really believe you can do the job so all you that believe that moderators and the rest can sort out your life let them sort it out!! Because you can’t sort out your own life, that is why you refer to the moderators to protect you. I am using a junior planner to write this post so excuse the spelling, but I believe my junior planner is better than half of you and deserves better job:) just for a laughs, my junior planner cant spell and he is still learning, but he is quite good and he has the capability of learning but remember that he typed this, and this is the basis of democracy.
Any body how wants to learn fly-fishing can learn from my apprentice

Quote from Philip:
"Any body [who] wants to learn fly-fishing can learn from my apprentice"




Is that because you are incapable of tying your own flies, Philip?

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com

Is it worse to be moderated or to self censor????

Stuart,

I know how to do up my own fly, however, when it comes to fishing, you need experts, and never believe you know it all

Oscar,

At least you have the decency to think, the moderators believe they have the right to censor anything they don’t like. The point is that they have no rights, execpt knocking off degenarates who have no right being on PP. Their problem is that seem to have taken on this role of the KGB, ie wiping anything they do not like. This has always been the problem wherever censure was applied, that the idiots seem to take the positions of censors (moderators) and they inevatiable screw up the system, therefore you need people with vision in these positions. I do not claim to be the ideal moderator, but I can keep a few contractors happy.

Hello PPers,

On the subject of moderators, housekeeping, and maintaining order on a discussion forum...

If the moderators were not on the case, what should we do to stop people being rude and abusive etc? Wouldn’t the whole system degenerate? i.e. some good discussion and a percentage of rude back-chat?

Are we saying that if no-one removed the odd rude message, would they not be posted in the first instance? How should this, could this work? Do we have no rules??

I know that some of the moderators initially offered their time to help run the forum, however, their role now seems to have to involve a large degree of removing rude posts. This does not make them happy.

This is an interesting question. Your collective thoughts would be welcome.

PP Admin Team (Volunteer planners like yourselves).

The forum guidelines don’t see unreasonable to me. Am I missing something? Which guideline is causing a problem with discussing planning and scheduling?

Stacy
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