Do computers think???? Help

Hmmmmmm,

Well I think that when you introduce a concept like fuzzy logic, the process behind AI, where a binary yes or no becomes yes, no or maybe, we are starting to get to the stage where a computer can think.

If a computer can think should it have the same rights as a human? Self determination etc.

Andy,

Forgive my ignorance, have heard of fuzzy logic b4, don’t clearly understand what it is though.
Can you explain within the context of your posting, what "fuzzy logic" is?

And again perhaps, what "self determination" is, within the paramaters of the posting.

Thanks,

Darrell

Darrel

OK I’ll try......

Computers are built around binary logic: 1 or 0.

In order to facilitate Artificial Intelligence (AI) we need fuzzy logic. So instead of 1 or 0 we have a third option, lets call it F.

So upon each action a computer makes there is always the option of F, or in human terms we can decide yes, no or maybe.

So we have made an inconclusive decision. For me this constitutes thought. You can programme a machine to say yes or no but for it to say hmmmm maybe is a different matter.

Andy

Oh, and Self Determination in this context I meant to be the ability to influence your own existance through making judgements.

Andy

Andy

Hmmmmm..
Thanks for that. All clear. we can move forward.

So, perhaps your arguement on that basis, would be, because of the "design" of fuzzy logic, then computers can think.

And, then, if we have designed them to think, is that then thinking?? or is it something else.

I am playing devils advocate a bit here, but generally I would concurr with your arguement as a whole.

And are all computers (modern super computers) still built on binary, 0, 1, F logic?????


Thanks again.

Darrell

Darrell

If you think about it (no pun) the human brain is simply a machine that runs on electro-chemical stimuli. OK it is far more complex than the most advanced super-computer, bu tlooked at in those terms then yes, if we design something to have independant thought, and it fulfills it’s design then we have a thinking computer.

It’s simply that so far we are not clever enough to engineer something as sophisticated as the human brain.

Thank goodness.

The latest studies in human cognition are that human intelligence is a matter of being able to take action based on novel (not seen before) stimuli. Adjusting for changes in environment or situation and being able to imagine are what really separates AI from "real" intelligence.

My thought is that when computers begin to be self aware and able to desire survival is when we will get into a whole nother world.

I can see it now. Huge "Right to File" protests as self aware machines protest being decommissioned.

Larry

And are all computers (modern super computers) still built on binary, 0, 1, F logic?????

Binary logic is just 0 & 1, there is no F option. I am not aware of any production computers (whether supercomputer or PC) that offer a 3 state logic system. I seem to recall reading some time ago that 3 state logic systems were being pursued (perhaps with relation to quantum computers), but I haven’t heard anything about it in a while.

Bernard Ertl
InterPlan Systems

Hi Guys,

The problem is that binary logic is exactly that, 2, i.e. either on or of, the point is how many fingers do you have i.e. digits, and how do you count with them? If you had one finger and you try and count in the normal way you can count to 1, in the binary way you can count to 2 , if you have 5 fingers in the normal way you can count to 5 but in binary you can count to 31, ad infinitem thus the more digits (fingers) you have the more you can count .

The only case I have ever found for artificial intelligence, was David Hawkins ( a champion of Charles Darwin’s theory for evolution), who states that the is the potential for inorganic elements to evolve in the same way as organic elements (i.e. the hydrogen/carbon fraction), in other words silicon (silates) has the potential to grow the same way as organic elements. This means that there is potential for inorganics to become intelligent , however, this is highly unlikely as Darwin theory of evolution spans millions of years and no such signs have been noticed, thus , I expect my might have to wait a few more million years for some answers.

Another author who discusses this subject is Dr.Peter Plichta who did a lot of work in connection with silicone chains and you can read his book “ Gods secret formula” to understand where he is coming from (the prime number theory) . Although the authors, are talking about totally different subjects, there is some correlation between the two authors.

The potential for artificial intelligence exits, however, there are no facts to prove it.

The interesting point was when Stephen Hawkins retracted his statements about black holes.

What can we say?

Regards

The danger being that their was always cases for,
*The world being round
*Man being able to fly
*Man travelling in space etc.
*And lots of other stuff

But no facts to prove it??

Then it happened.......

Their is also the ROVA principle (By A. Schopenhauer I thnk)
The TRUTH is at first Ridiculed or Rejected,
Then it is Opposed Violently,
Then is Accepted as being self evident.

Generally most things are a means to an end, or have an endless meaning. Ignoring the fact that we are pumping a lot of time, energy and resource into development of things like AI or Bio-technology / Genetics etc., to me would be self evident that we are or a course to somewhere resembling artificial intelligence (however that can be defined).

Some would argue that AI exists all around us, we just take it for granted, as we do a lot of things. But do not recognise the stuff that is staring us in the face.

Don’t know the year we started flying, but we are flying the skies maybe less than 150 years, and we have already gone to space and back, allegedly.

Breakthrough, development, discovery is seldom made by large bodies or groups of people. But by individuals or small groups.

Regards,
Darrell

I don’t know about Artificial Intelligence but I’ve come across Artificial Ignorance often enough from customers and subbies.


:-)

Andy,
There is little artificial about ignorance, it is the real thing, although their might be defferent levels.

Philip,

You are well read, must say. Might have a go at some of these titles some day.

On the basis of what you have quoted,
David Hawkins - "the potential for inorganic elements to evolve in the same way as organic elements has the potential to grow the same way as organic elements".

Darwin or Hawinks, presumably are not alive today?
If they were, might I suggest that they would be blown away by what man knows are can do today. With say only referencing breeding capabilities, & couple that with having mapped the human genome & genetics developments.
Complimented with computer development.

Hawkins himself would probably now be working in a lab somewhere, trying to make the breakthrough into the intelligent growth of organic or inorganic matter for AI development and creation.

Darwins & Hawkins beliefs & statements were ridiculed also.
Now they are accepted as self evident. These types of people do not sit still. There are not many though.

Also, forgive my ignorance...but what does Stephen Hawkins retracting a statement on black holes mean?

Thanks,

Darrell

Darell
Give me inteligence artificial or not

Why the concern?

Are you thinking of giving up planning and let the computer do it for you

If so artificial looks like a superb project manager yes no maybe

Actually pretty much like a lawyer or politician

Maybe inteligence before atrificial inteligence is the key

Oscar

Yes Oscar.

Yes Darrell ?????

Hi Daryll,
One of your better response, where did you find the spell checker?

As for Darwin,(Who is dead) and D vid Hawkins ( Alive but anonymous), the point is that they both have something to say, and it is not always meaningless, if you spend a bit of time, and keep an eye on these things, it becomes very interesting, as scientists have very flexible minds, such as is the case in our industry with designers, the O I F....d up problem, and the re-design takes a few more months, and you have to cut the fabricators time, and also the erector.

I think of what I have to do, by the way Stephen Hawkins is on his last legs, but still walking, and the world will miss him, right or wrong

Regards

Gents

My understanding separate computer and human is "innovation"

Computer do what we instructed them to do. For example computer can take picture and can turn a picture into oil painting. But computer cannot draw a picture from "Imagination" in other word, invent a picture or objects.

So "Computer dont think, it did what we instructed it to do"

Cheers

Alex

When a computer thinks outside the box, people hit the reboot button.

Stacy
Participate at the Project Management Knowledge Base!

Alex,

You made a good point, about what separates Humans form Computers. "Innovation" ??

I take your example of perhaps the ability to innovate & express that innovation, through an oil painting.
Art though in itself is subjective.

Am sure that we could programme a computer to select random shapes, colours, lines, shades etc. and throw together a piece of "art work"? "They" can choose random numbers & solutions, so this is just an extension of that.

If we say look at painting a still life, portrait or landscape, digital photography and imagery, can generally be far more accurate than many master artists.

Are we too, as Humans not also programmed to innovate or be innovative (whatever that means). Some are more innovative than others, depending on the speciality or field of expertise. Can one not learn to think differently????

Also, as humans are we not also programmed to do what we are told or do what we are programmed to do?

Thus perhaps we can programme computers to innovate??

Does this make any sense at all??

Respect,

Darrell

Hi Darrell,
Quite right, we are also programmed, and the software is our DNA, therefore, the DNA always changes slighly from parents to children, but can still be traced back.

Humans seem to have the perception, that we are the only ones who can think rationaly, because we can talk and write. I do not believe this is true, as my little Maltese who cannot talk or write has the ability to think, which I can see in her everyday actions, as she has enotions, which has a strong link with intellegence.

The potential is there for artificial intellgence, however, the degree of sofistication it might reach is debatable. The subject is very interesting, but as in all other things the proof of the pudding lies in the eating.

Regards

Philip

Darrell,

Do computers think of Planning? Maybe you can let the computer answer that.

And what is Planning by the way?

have fun

Edgar,

What is the definition of thinking? Computors run based on algorithms (Hopefully you understand the word) that do the calculations for you, obviously you use your computor on a daily basis, to think for you, so why ask stupid questions.

Can you actually do what the computor does in seconds, calculate a forward- and back pass, try writing the software to do this, and you will not know your arse from your elbow( Hi there to the moderators, delete the arse word)

Hi Philip,

I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking. I don’t even know the meaning of "ignorance of the law excuses no one" because I don’t even know where I come from...(neither my mom i supposed)...is it a BIG BANG?! And someone is asking if computers think..and what do you mean by "stupid"? asking stupid questions?

Well, I believe in God anyway.

God Bless

In response to Phillip’s post, Edgar’s brain probably can outperform his computer.. providing there’s no interference from Edgar’s mind. The calculations required to juggle, for example, are rather complex.. but they can be done in the background while holding a conversation.

But here we see the distinction between Brain and Mind... Hard wired or sub concious calculations (ballistics for juggling) and impulses (breathing etc) vs Concious thought (whiling the day away discussing abstract topics on forums such as this)

Edgar,
I believe the question of whether or not computers think is perhaps the wrong question. Computers calculate according to specific instructions.
It sounds like what you are asking is what is the nature of consciousness. Greater men than any here have pondered this question and still haven’t come up with a good answer.
There have been many attempts, from the spiritual to the scientific, but why we are conscious is one of the last great questions.

Larry

Folks,

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire.

Consider this:- Is not 90-100% of what we do ever day, day in day out, 7 days a week, habitual or a habit.

In that, we seldom do something that we have not done, or seldom think differently, to the ways we thought about things before.

Thus we are just re-enacting our programming or habits??
And to me, if this is classed as "Consciousness or thinking", then perhaps the same could be said of a computer??

Regards,
Darrell

Why we are concious isn’t neccessarily that much of a mystery. The ability to learn, and to be self aware, both convey marked advantages to those organisms which possess them.
Once brains had become sufficiently complex for these constructs to come into place, it stands to reason that they remain.
To be self aware allows the concept of self preservation, a great survival and evolutionary advantage.
The fact that our organic computational engines (our brains) gradually became so comlpex that they allowed the constructs of self, and eventually, abstract thought to appear by chance leads us to believe that our silicon based engines will not be too far behind. They are, after all, ’evolving’ far quicker than we did.
This also leads to the mildly alarming notion that the first group to build a concious thinking engine may not intend to, it could end up being a by product of some other endeavour.

In response to Darrell’s last post, the key difference boils down to who does the programming.

In our repetitive actions, we create purpose built neuron circuits in the brain to handle these activities, these circuits are refined and improved each time we perform the activity, until we can do it ’without thinking’ .. learning the six times table is a fair example of this, but so is a faatballer’s ball juggling.

The average pro footballer may not be particularly adept at calculus or ballstics, but learns exactly how and how hard to kick the ball to make it go where he/she wants. They learn this by repeating the activity over and over again (practice).

A computer however, tends to rely on external programming (you or I) to develop and refine the process flow.

Perhaps then, the question is, can computers learn by themselves without being programmed, or can an algorithm be written which sufficiently simulates the processes humans undergo when learning?

Our ability to adapt, innovate, and "reprogram" ourselves to new situations and environments are what separate us from machines. When machines start getting creative, that’s probably when we should start to worry.

One of my favorite science fiction stories about this is "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov. The scientists build the worlds’ greatest computer and then put the Big Question to it. "Is there a God?"

The computer whirs and clicks and replies, "There is now."

I think this was the story. Another that comes to mind although it may be an Arthur C. Clarke story is about the galaxy wide network of quantum computers that manages to outlast all life in the galaxy. At which point the computer says "Let there be light." and so on and so forth.

Frankly, I’m not inclined to believe in intelligent design of humans as no one could possibly think it was a good idea to put waste facilities in the middle of a prime recreation area. Or maybe God is a civil engineer at heart.

Larry

an excellent point, very well put

This is great stuff.......thanks for all yer inputts.

Can a/the "modern computer" be programmed to learn, adapt, innovate etc? Is there "programmers" out there doing or trying to do this?

Darrell

Hi Guys,
I am not as fascicious as I sound, and appear to be, I just like stirring the pot. Somebody, no names no pack drill earlier mentioned that he believes in God, well the questions is who is this so-called God? I believe he is the sum of all the souls in the universe, and that we are all part of it, you have to think in a good way, in that we are all shared resources of this entity, and some is good and some is bad. However, at the end of the day it is the combination of good and bad, that determines the outcome of things. There is an interesting point that was made in a book callled the "Soul’s code" written by some american professor, where he studied the actions of various people, and classified them on a bell curve. At the bad end you had Hitler and at the good end some or other actress or singer, however, he referred to the people in the centre as the mediocre souls (Not in a derogatory way), and strangely, some of the most important people who have lived falls within this bracket.

Anyway, I had a funny experience yesterday, in that I was on a course, and was supposed to do a mental calculations, ie using my ten fingers, like in a abacus, and kept on getting the wrong answers. Although I knew the answer instintavely, my brain kept coming to the wrong answer. The problem was on the back pass trying to calculate the negative float, I was always out by one day. I couldn’t figure it out, until I realised I forgot to count in zero ie 0, I was going from 1 to -1. Sounds stupid, but when the program is defective, this sort of bull happens.

This is a problem that often happens in software, the programmers make a basic mistake, and [deleted by Moderator.] Humans are fallible, but computors are not, and if the human input is correct, the computor output is as well. My answer is still that computors only think as well as the humans driving them.

Regards

Hi to All,

May we all live in peace.

Thank you.

Hi Guys,
I hope we do, that is live in peace

Hi Guys,

IMO, computers will never be able to think like humans do. Computers need inputs or programs in order to function and they will just work just the way they are created for.

In Japan, they are already showing stuffs such as robots who can ride a bicycle (this is amazing!), can do entertainment such as dancing, singing etc by themselves. There is also a basketball alike tournament for robots, fighting robots such as in zumo wrestling match, etc – this types are remotely controlled though.

Perhaps a factor which separates humans from robots run by computer chips is that humans can think with feelings and conscience.

Regards.
Sen

Philip & co..

Perhaps you missed some earlier points, about "seldom thinking differently"??

Consider this:- Is not 90-100% of what we do ever day, day in day out, 7 days a week, habitual or a habit.

In that, we seldom do something that we have not done, or seldom think differently, to the ways we thought about things before.

Thus we are just re-enacting our programming or habits??
And to me, if this is classed as "Consciousness or thinking", then perhaps the same could be said of a computer??

Regards,
Darrell

Hi Darryl,

90% habits is a very boring life! I think this is another area wherein humans differ from computers: As humans will be bored doing repetitive tasks, computers will not --- infinitely...unless they are shutdown or there’s no more power supply.

Cheers.
Sen

Darrel,
Perhaps the difference between computers and people in this respect is that while both may do repetitive tasks, and may function in repetitive ways, there are important differences.

Humans have the choice to behave differently. Computers do not.

Humans have curiousity, while computers do not.

Humans will daydream, computers do not.

Larry

MR. PHILIP JONKER,

" I believe he is the sum of all the souls in the universe".

remember, THE SOUL IS NOT LIFE TO ITSELF!

would you say that computer is the life of the Soul???????

We all have a point
i dont know what yours is edgar
the is planning planet not the god network
edgar pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee
oscar

I don’t know. You knew better than I Oscar...How is it down there?

hot
not crazy hot
i keep my hat on especially at midday

oscar

Hi Darrell,

I take your reply as an insult, as for thinking outside the brackects, I have been there, and do not have to rely on other peoples judgements to make up theories. As for sen, are the japanese becoming so lazy, that they have to create robots to do their sports for them? I believe this is untrue, as they are certainly improving at rugby. The robot thing is just one upmanship.

Regards

Oscar Wilde said:
hot
not crazy hot
i keep my hat on especially at midday

Noel Coward would be proud of you, as he was the one that said that only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.



Larry

Hi Edgar,

The soul is the essential part of our being. Think about it. Actually further, to the point, is if you can create an inorganic soul, you will prove me wrong, so go out and find it.

Hi there, Phil.

The Japanese, they still work to death and never lazy. Agree, rugby is improving here and is gaining popularity. Baseball, football/soccer, zumo wrestling are still the most popular though.

The robot thing I mentioned did not meant that they were created to replace sports but they just served as experimental to prove that they can do tasks just as humans.

Philip,

Apologies for any unintentional insults caused.
Although if you caould be a bit more specific, in the why, then perhaps I could respond.

You quote "The soul is the essential part of our being".
What has this got to do with the science, be that it might be an in-exact science of programming, planning or computing?

Have you scientifically proven the existance of "the/a soul"?
What is a soul?
What is the need of a soul?

Perhaps this is reason for such a slow progression in the sciences. The need of some to have to consider, Religion, Superstition, Politics etc.

I don’t knock any of the above, and each has its place.
And granted some discoveries and developments in science, have come from "spiritualists" with very scientific minds.

Both the radio and television were developed, by their respective inventors, because they had a need to get in touch with the spirit world or "the ether", but through scientific methods. They were trying to scientifically prove that a spirit world existed.

So perhaps you might be right, if someone were to try and take up the gauntlet in creating "an inorganic soul" (whatever that is) progress could be made in the development of artifical ingelligence.

Regards,

Darrell

Another Day (getting better)...

Hi There,

We are not stardust...We are not billion-years old (maybe more)...We are not golden...We’re more than diamonds...We’re Humans...The "earned value" of a perfect plan...Not comparable with anything that can be seen...

We are created to live & multiply...Not to live & destroy.
We are naturally gifted...Gifted to plan...a meaningful plan...not to make wholeness another level of emptiness

Hope we can preserve what has been planned for us.

Are we obliged to show our respect & gratitude?

Thank the Creator, we’re free...

Hi Darell,

What makes out intellegence different from computors is the soul, and againd makes us different as individuals. To make computors think for themselves, ie artificial intellegence, they something simular to the organic brain in humans or animals. I believe animals also have intellegence, even if a lot of humans don’t believe this. Calculation is essentially what computors do, ie logical sets of data is processed, to give answers, however, intellegence is the ability to think outside the normal logic which exists. Think about it, if Einstein had stuck within the logical thinking patterns of his profession, which most people do, he would never have made the findings that he did.

Regards,

Philip

Philip,
Excellent post on the role of creativity and thinking outside the box as a difference between AI and HI (Human Intelligence).

Computers can think, but they cannot think differently than we tell them to. This has advantages, but it also requires humans to be very clear and unambiguous in their instructions. When a computer makes an error, it’s because someone gave bad instructions. When people make errors, it can be because they are having a bad day, are distracted, or have other things going on that consume processing time. The difference is that a computer won’t complain, it’ll just shut down or start giving goofy answers.

There’s a science fiction story by Heinlein or Asimov about a computer that is programmed with AI. It works well for a while, but soon starts to give bad answers, insert mistakes here and there. The main scientist doesn’t know what to do until his son tells him to let the computer run by itself every so often. The punchline to the story is "Gee, Dad. A kid’s gotta have time to play!"

Might be another possible difference between AI and HI.