Do computers think???? Help

Hi Larry,
I always had this problem,with secretaries having a bad hair day, and the rest, so where does the problem lie?

I don’t see it as a problem necessarily, more as a difference that really ends up being a benefit in some areas and a liability in others. Gotta take the good with the bad on both ends. Difference is, we can change computers much more easily than we can computers.

Larry

Philip,

Some "good" points.
But you have yet to scientifically prove that a soul exists, or to define it for that point. And to any extent, what might it be good for? if such a thing exists, and what does it prove if such a thing exists?

And I take it that you define intelligence as "having a soul", well then how do you define or measure that. That is if intelligence can or should be measured.

What makes you think that "Humans" think for themselves, I am not convinced that they do, as we repeat things like "bad habits" or "bad behaviour" over and over, some without any correction, forever......

Calculation is essentially what the human brain does after all, and it is only programming, be it nature or nurture, that has the biggest influence.

You are assuming that Einstein, thought outside "the box", but thinking outside the box is always relative, to the person doing the thinking. (Whatever that means).

The way I think is logical to me, the way you think is logical to you, The way a computer thinks is logical to the computer. (Just like the "Traffic Light Syndrome"). An observer looking at all 4, may decide otherwise.

Regards,

Darrell

Darrell,
As I said, earlier, computers, unlike people do not have free will. They are unable to identify any action other than what they have been programmed for.
Because of the incredible processing power of the brain, we are able to continually reprogram ourselves.
True, there are people who continue to repeat the same bad or good actions without variance, but being obsessive compulsive is considered a mental illness in the DSM IV.

I suggest that discussions about the soul and so forth have no real bearing in this discussion, as it has nothing to do with whether computers think, but has everything to do with whether computers are the equivelant of humans, with the rights, responsibilities, etc. thereof.

Maybe the conversation could be better served by someone defining what thought is? Is it mere calculation, or does it have other, more esoteric properties that differentiate it from mere number crunching?

Larry

[Deleted by Moderator.]

Hi Darrell,

As I have stated in a previous posting, there is definitive evidence that the soul exists. I suggest you get hold of a book,"The Soul’s Code : In Search of Character and Calling" by James Hillman, a professor in psychology, who who has some interesting and well researched perceptions on the subject. You ask the question why do we still do bad things, remember not all souls are good, some is bad, but mainly thet are a mix of both, Hillman comes from this angle, and use statistical analysis to show his point, further he looks at various characters, with well documented backgrounds/biographies, and matches their home circumstances as children etc, to establish that the soul is always there, from the beginning of the persons life. For instance he takes people like hitler and and various serial killers, and proves that the same behavioural patterns existed, despite childhood circumstances and upbringing.

Computors can also do bad things, but they need somebody bad to program them. That is why there is viruses.

Regards,

Philip

perceptions are not evidence.........or facts.

Hi Darrell

Maybe if you took some time of to read, some books, you would find out there is a lot of people out there that think, a it helps to know about these things. You do have the right to accept what you agree with, and argue against what you disagree with. Darrell you are a big boy so you have the right to think, and also have perceptions of your own, like the fact that what you perceive as perceptions is not evidence.

Regards

Philip

Hmmm... the whole subject of the soul as a distinct behaviour defining entity is a tricky one, not withstanding the whole religion/ creation issue (which is best avoided on forums such as these).

My doggie has a set of consistent behavioural charactaristics that make him ’Alfie’; he can be relied upon to act in reasonably predictable ways in all kinds of circumstances, does he have a soul?

If he does, does that mean all doggies have souls? What about cats, gerbils, rats, cockroaches, fruit flies, bacteria? Where on the great pyramid of life do you draw the line, and how do you justify this?

On the other hand, if Alfie doesn’t have a soul (poor doggie), what about monkeys, chimps, orangutan? Their behaviour is almost human, in some cases showing an understanding of language, advanced problem solving skills, and a definable character, or personality. Surely they have a soul?

My personal hypothesis is that the ’soul’ or character, or personality is a result of a very complex, very flexible thinking engine that has evolved sufficiently to take external stimulus and construct a raft of concepts and tools for dealing with them. It is the combination and interaction of these constructs that defines a personality.

I still hold that there will come a time, in the not too distant future, that we will develop silicon based engines that are sufficiently complex as to show the first signs of these traits and abilities.

Thank you Gordon,

First of all there is no religious or creation issue here.

You hit the nail on the head, if your dog Alfie and my Tammy has the remotest connection, it is via some wolf somewhere in the the distant past, however, I bet you they are nothing like each other. The do things in their own ways which each of us likes. Now, try and create a doggy robot, and program it in such away, that everybody likes it, impossible, we pick our dogs as puppies and learn to like them as they are. There is a thing called DNA, which determines who we are. This is organic, and the closest thing in the inorganic world is silanes, where if you could manipulate, you stand a chance of growing something inorganic like DNA. This has not happened yet, so computors have a backlog, and as a result can’t think.

Regards

Philip

but I programmed my doggy, when I say sit, he sits... he’ll even roll over and give me a paw.... because that’s how I programmed him :o)

I don’t think any silicon based brain will develop in the same way as ours, because the drivers are different, there is no self replicating impulse, no natural evolutionary pressures, no predators (Microsoft aside :o)). What we are more likely to see is an exponential growth in computing power until some (probably haphazard, and almost definately quantum ;o)) critical horizon is reached. After which, quite random occurences of basic sentience would be observed.

That is my hypothesis, based on little more than too much cheese at night-time - wanna bet ? :o)

Hi Gordon,

Your doggy probably likes you because you give her treats, and some good scratches, thus she does her thing. Try the same thing with your computor, and the cd drive or floppy will pack up because of the stuff you are shoving down it.

Hey guys

What is the conclusion then .... Do computer think??

Alex.... thinking............. At least I know I can :-)
May be not ?? the one whom programme me make me think I can think....

Hi Alex,
and who is that?

why not try counting the stars & caressing the winds?

maybe there you’ll find out.

Hey

I think there is already people being paid for counting the stars. Why should I do it then. Logic "If paid = zero, then do nothing "

hehe
Alex

People are getting paid for counting the stars?

OK, there are 895,411,256,324,415,510,005,512,546 of them.

Prove me wrong, or give me my money :o)

Edgar
I thought PP stood for planning planet not philosophy planet
Thought

Gordon,

you forgot the four (4) stars on Oscar’s shoulder, it’s free!

What do you think Clive? Does the subject really think?

I’m awake!

[Deleted by Moderator.]

Clive,

Just playing Devil’s advocate.... you said that the cerebellum is not responsible for thought, simply reacting to signal, thereby inferring a similarity to a computer.

Surely by saying that the cerebellum doesn’t think, the abiove inference would lead you to assume a computer doesn’t either.

Personally, I’m of the opinion that computers don’t think... yet.

Gentlemen,

Sleep is good for you. "Nonsense" is sometimes relaxing, maybe it’s created just to keep the balance.

have a nice weekend

The part of the brain responsible for conscious thought is believed to be the cerebral cortex. Much of the rest (cerebellum, medula oblongata, corpus collosum, lymbic system) is busy doing the work of keeping everything else running.

Larry

Hi Guys,

Maybe there is a way of developing an artificial cerebellum, maybe using silanes or even genetics, and this could be installed in computors, this could be quite a good way of getting computors to think, ie go down to your local genetic laboratory, donate a few genes, and they grow a cerebellum, install this in your computor, and voila, it has all your experience, and, you will have more time for other pursuits such as golf, watching sports, sex, and the like. The only problem is that you will have to gain some more experience, so you will still, have to devote some of your time to work. The next problem is creating an interface between your cerebellum and the one you installed in your computor, so you can update it now and then, with new experiences you have gained. The next problem is yout computor, will also want to play golf, so you install a golf game, then it wants to watch sports, so you organise it with a video link, and a sports channel.

[Deleted by Moderator.]

Regards

Philip

Hi Guys,

One blank and one LOL, hardly what I expected?????????????

Get to work.

Regard

Philip

Hi Philip,

Freedom is like computers that never think, but only respond to those minds who may never understand what a Target is.

The link to Freedom...


Edgar (AKA Edgar)

Ok folks,

Thanks for all the "in-valuable" input.
Perhaps the tread has wandered somwhat?

In terms of human thinking, what is it to think?
Who thinks they "really" think?
And what proof have you / has one got for this?

In understanding the "Thinking concept" in ourselves, and what it really means to us, maybe we can scientifically define, wether or not computers think.

Perhaps we could all come to a consensus about the concept of what thinking is, and start again????????

Respect,

Darrell

[Deleted by Moderator.]

Hi AKA Edgar,

Well appreciated is your comment, despite the censorship, of posting. We all know there is a lot of people with tunnel vision out there.


Freedom is in your mind, and if you cannot appreciate it you become a moderator ( Censor)

We live our lives like humans, so need not be treated as we do not exist. Maybe an IQ test for every moderator is in the order of the day. Can probably solve the problem, and leave the computors in charge.

An easier life without moderation. I have everything I want, a brilliant wife, who does not believe in moderation, 4 dogs who agree with my wife, and five children, who have no moderation, and everybody is happy, why if I have something to say does some idiot moderator tackle me and delete my contribution?

Regards

Philip

why am I "deleted by moderator"?

Neeraj,

The point exactly.

Regards

Philip

To quate Richard Bach "A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such a speed... it feels an impulsion... This is the place to go now. But the sky knows the reasons and patterns behind all clouds, and you will know too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons."

All of us may not be trying to lift ourselves high enough. But a few of us are doing that. And I strongly believe that, one day the human race will reach high enough to understand the logic behind many puzzles.

wait till that time

Completly off the wall ranting here
Why does Bono and that Bl**dy fool geldorf believe that derailing the Gleneagles global warming conference so that Africans can be fed is a good idea. The ability of the food producers to produce is directly related to the climate, ranting away with a guitar may feed africans but the food will not be produced to enable that to happen if we dont do something about global warming now.
BY THE WAY IT TAKES 960KG OF CARBON DIOXIDE TO PRODUCE ONE TONNE OF CEMENT SO ITS NOT JUST CARS AND BUSES THAT ARE DOING THE DAMAGE ITS US TOO.
Do computers think maybe the question should be does the population think further than what they are told to think and follow and therefore who cares whether computers think because what they say would be ignored unless it had some sexy swish on it and was doctored with spin.
Well that feels much better
Oscar