Management vs Leadership?

Hello Norzul

As defined in some dictionaries: Leadership is the act of leading or the ability to lead; while Management is the manner of treating, directing, or administering somthing...

they may have various differences in functions but they both can exist in any individual...

Cheers!

Christian

Management is the art of getting work done with others. While Leadership is about providing direction, ideally proactively, showing the path, blazing a new one in the face of all odds, inspiring and keeping the moral high even when the chips are down.

My conviction is Proactiveness is the steeping stone to great leadership. If you are not proactive, you are actually eliciting response from others in order to react which means you are being lead by others.

Hi Guys,

I found this discussion quite interesting as it highlights some of the current thinking on management which is not necessarily correct. If we take the definition of management given by Louis Allen, management consists of:

Planning
Organising
Leading
Controlling

This is similar to the definition proposed by Henri Fayol, where management consists of:

Prévoyance (Planning)
Organisation (Organising)
Coordination (Coordinating)
Commandement (Directing)
Contrôl (Controlling)

From these two at least we see that a managers must also be leaders, or they`re not doing the job properly.

There is a pretty good article about management and leadership which you can get to from the link below.

Is "Leadership" Contrary to Good "Management"?

Thanks for making me look at this again.

Chris Oggham

Hi

I also feel, As Norzul Ibhrim said, managment deals with things. Management knowledge can be used to translate the vision, goals to detailed activities. We can also develop systems but Management does not focus on the people who really work to achieve the goals.

I feel Leadership clearly gives appropriate motivation at right time for the individual to putforth afforts in achieving the organisation goals.

Nelson Mandela, Gandhi achieved freedom for their Countries with leadership.

Leadership is actually developing and nuturing an environment in which others can self-actualise in accomplishing their goal.

Leadership has three facets:

i) Accomplishing the mission
ii) Motivation
iii) Nurturing new leaders

In this new challenging environment I believe the right leadership is of utmost important for any company to survive and sustain the progress.

What is the right leadership?

Hi Norzul,

That`s a good question. I always reckoned Lao Tzu was right.

The Best Rulers

Of the best rulers,
The people only know that they exist;
The next best they love and praise
The next they fear;
And the next they revile.
When they do not command the people’s faith,
Some will lose faith in them,
And then they resort to oaths!
But of the best when their task is accomplished,
Their work done,
The people all remark, “We have done it ourselves.”

Lao-Tzu
Chinese philosopher
6th century BC

Just substitute Leader for Ruler.

Regards

Chris Oggham

In our company leadership is defined to have 4 dimensions:
1) Develop people
2) Inspire people
3) Outperform
4) Ownership

Dear Norzul,

i believe u mean developing ’leaders’ and not people. However, i can’t buy on ’ownership’. Thats the intrinsic hallmark of any profesisonal. How can u define leadership on that basis?

I read in the book "the seven habits of highly effective people" by Stephen R. Covey’s a simple and nice destinction between management and leadership... the author suggests that;
management is the art of getting things done the right way while leadership is the art of geeting people to do the right things!!!

i hope this helps,

cheers...

I would say it’s the same difference between "organizing" and "directing".

Management deals on "how things are done or should be done" while Leadership deals on "what are the things that need to be done".

So one needs the other to succeed.

Hi Guys,

Demetrius is absolutely right when he says "one needs the other to succeed". Which is why a lot of management theorists say that leadership is part of the management function. I’m not so sure that it need be integrated quite so tightly, but managers certainly do need to exhibit some leadership charactaristics, if only by setting an example.

Chris Oggham

Hello There,

Most of you are absolutely right, Hi! Norzul long time no see...since in Finland..

Management and Leadership are totally different in views but same focus " Project Delivery on Target".

Have you been through a Conpany or a Project whereby "There’s a Lot of Chiefs, not Enough Indians".

Joking side.

Jerry

7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Covey
1) Proactive
2) Begins with the end in minds
3) Put First Thing First
4) Think Win-Win
5) Seek First to understand then to be understood
6) Synergize
7) Sharpen the saw

Hello! Norzul,

I fully...Agree!!

Regards,

Jerry

Hello,

I’ll be on Leadership.

Leadership was with mankind as old as man himself.

Scientific approach to management thoughts is the product of the twenty centtury. Management idea gave only broad understanding of the functioning of an organization: corporation, government services, construciton, military organization.

But it is leadership that will save the day.

In construction, an individual lacking in leadership will always complain, make alibi on why he cannot achieved, etc.

On the other hand, an individual with leadership skills got can do attitude, he can attain his objective and bulldoze his way to ensure what is expected of him to accomplish will become a reality.

Management thoughts will change, but, leadership will always be with us, human.

Cheers,

Charlie

Clive,

You’re absolutely right. Management and Leadership should be completely integrated otherwise neither of them works effectively. Management without Leadership becomes manipulation, paper-shuffling and bureaucracy. Leadership without Management becomes self-indulgence and dictatorship.

Charlie made a point that management thoughts change but leadership is always with us, and that’s true to a certain extent, but management thoughts aren’t management. At its simplest, management is making sure that the people you’re managing have the resources and support they need to do the job, then getting the hell out of the way so they can get on and do it. For that to be truly effective, though, someone has to show them a vision, an inspiration and an example, which is where leadership comes in.

Management and leadership both are essential to maximise success.

Chris

Hi! Guy’s,

Agree! Integrated Management is a must. Can we make it in General; There will be no Project Big or small without Managementand Leadership. Do you? There must be a "DRIVER".

OOooppsss...;>

Hi Jerry,

I still bet on Leadership that will make a lot of difference in our life. An effective leader generarlly applies the fundamental of management function: Planning, Organizing, Implementing and Control/monitoring.

An effective leader may not realize that he was using the fundamenatal of management function in achieving goals, however the fact that the leader was effective, it follows that the leader used management function instinctively.

Are we aware that each and everyone of us got leadership instinct that help us save the day and help us also to move forward?

We will start to evaluate ourselves and then we will move forward and come up with the conclusion that LEADERSHIP IS BETTER THAN MANAGEMENT.

Cheers,

charlie

Hi Charlie,

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you. Leadership is not better than Management, nor is Management better than Leadership they are too closely integrated to make such a comparison.

Earlier in your post #22, you describe the management function as being "Planning, Organizing, Implementing and Control/monitoring", this is pretty much what Louis Allen says namely - Planning, Organising, Leading, Controlling. You then go on to make the point yourself that leadership is effective only when integrated with management, so I really don’t see how you can say that Leadership is better than Management.

Chris Oggham

Charlie
I write this not meaning to offend and in no way do I subscribe to the activities of the leader
The story is thus
Once upon a time a small austrian decided he wanted to rule a major country he was a good speaker and manipulator of both fear and favour but he was not a manager. However he attracted excellent managers who detailed and recorded their attrocoties.
In this case it can be clearly seen that the two activities are mutually inclusive.
Leadership and management have to go together
I agree with Chris

Hi! Charles,

Well, the way I look at the current issue "Leadership and Management" we cannot separate the two. Even before the mediaval period; "Once Upon a Time" those great Kings and Queen cannot rule their Kingdom in a proper way without; City Mayor, Tax Collector and maybe Prime Minister.

I can guarantee that this issue, the result will be just like, which comes first the Egg or the Chicken and the conclusion is...KFC...Joking side.

I think we should have enough for this...

See yah..

The biggest difference between managers and leaders is the way they motivate the people who work or follow them, and this sets the tone for most other aspects of what they do.

Yes, the ability to motivate others is an important part of effective leadership.

In his book on Management Teams Belbin found that successful teams contained a member he described as a "Chairman", who would ensure all members of the team contributed rather than allowing one or two members to dominate. It was never explicitly stated, but I inferred, that this Chairman wasn’t necessarily the dominant "leader" in these groups, which suggests (to me) that management of a group and leadership of a group can be separate functions; the inspirational leader creating a vision, and a clever manager maximising participation.

You can be the best leader with minimal management quality:

For example:

BC: Alexander the Great, Genghis khan

AD: Hie Hitler,General MacArthur, my idol. Martin Luther King

There are a lot of leaders.

In our beloved Planet, of course we have PP Admin, then >>>>>>>>>> let the whole planet vote.

Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant

I bet on leadership.

It is the strenth of the leader that makes a lot of difference in the life of people.

I seen a lot of managers without leadership, it cause to much trouble within the work environment.

Leadership at the lower level of project construction are the leadman. This people do not have management skills. But the leadman ability to lead properly will energize his team to be productive.

Clive,

I agree with Ghengi Khan.

But General MacArthur, you are entitled with your opinion.

And I disagree.

MacArthur’s father demonstrated bravery and leadership during the American Civil War and eventually become an American General. General Douglas MacArthur was raise in American Indian Territory. He Graduated at West Point, Top of his class, 1st honor, Baron (as the PMA called the top batchmate or mistah. General Douglas MacArthur demostrated bravery during the American - Mexican War and also during the American adventure in the Philippines during the early 1900.

He was chief of staff of the US Armed Force. During World War II, he was the most senior General in US Armed Forces. It is worthy to note that French Indo-China (present Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) surrender to the Japs without a fight. Malaysia and Singapore, under the British Empore also surrender without a fight to the Japs.
Only in Philippines where Filipino Guerillas wages a fight to the Death because of the Leadership of General Douglas MacArthur and his promise to Return. "I SHALL RETURN". And the Filipinos did sustain the guerillas warfare believing General MacArthur shall return and Liberate the Philippines from Colonial Powers.

No other French or English General made promise to there colony that they will return with liberation army. So the locals did not wholeheartedly cooperated with there colonial master.

Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant

IN addition,

General Douglas MacArthur is not an ordinary man. He was born leader.

Is leadership a born trait or can leadership be acquired??!!!

In his comeback trail to liberate Philippines, MacArthur made it a point to know tidal information of islands, this is very important because MacArthur home base was in Port Moresby, Papua New Guineau. And he envision that it will be island hopiing. Also, MacArthur made use of limited resources inventing the theory to TRIPPLE ENVELOPMENT, meaning in amphibious landing of troops, he had to use ground forces, naval forces and the air force. First time it was use considering the coordination of the uniqueness of each.

In one operation somewhere in Papua New Guinea, General MacArthur notice that the insignia of dead Japanese where the Elite Troops that concquer French Indo-China, Malaysia and Singapore. Only MachArthur graps the important meaning of this: the japanes were sending there elit forces and the amirican were decimating the elite japs troops. So the remaining troops that the american will be facing are not good troops.

This is very important in Project Control Management because it is very important to know the factors that influence the project and it is also very important for PCM to mitigate the impact of this factor, eventually the training of succesful PCM will lead effective PROJECT MANAGER.

Leadership translate to bravery and experienced

Clive,

I know you are in your twiligth zone, maybe no need for you to find a hero since now you know that the hero is in you (as per Mariah Carrey song HERO).

I did anoyed me when you say negative about my idol. Just the same, you are free to expoound your ideas and understanding.

But when i was in my teens i read the book GENERAL DOUGLAS MACARTHUR AMERICAN CAESAR. He was my hero. I did strive to be the best, to be the top most. I did not achieve it, a lot of people are better than me.

But, BRAVERY I HAD

and that is also leadership.

YES WE HAVE MANAGER

Are they brave to lead????????????????????

Manager and management theory can be learned, can be acquried by appointment, by political connection, by bribery to get the appointment, or by inheritance,

BUT LEADERHIP and BRAVERY is in the genie, it is through process from childhood to teens to junior position until senior position.

A HOMO as in homo sapien or Transvite as practice by some PP member can be a manager but it can never lead, nor bravery, no and never, it can never lead, specially in the man’s world of construction project.

so Leadership is very important.

Sensei,
Successful Project Management Consultant

Hitler,
A scoundrel in history, but also one of the most success full leaders & managers ever in modern history.
Taking away the obvious hurt he imposed and the regime he implemented, he did have both qualities you are all talking about. Even if they were used for the wrong reasons !!!

Clive,

I was interested in Charlie’s post #33, it seems very confused, but he obviously has a very high opinion of Douglas MacArthur. However, he does seem to think bravery equates to leadership; it does not. A brave leader may be useful in wartime but if he’s more brave than leader he’ll end up getting people killed.

Douglas MacArthur could be cited as just such an example, although I don’t really think so as he didn’t show his face back in the Philippines until Wendell Fertig had all but beaten the Japanese with the guerrilla force he set up.

Charlie then goes on to give some rather confused thoughts on managers and management, apparently believing that you can inherit it. He then goes on to tell us that bravery and leadership are in the genes. Not quite correct, what most people think of as bravery is a reflex conditioned by the situation and training, whilst leadership is one aspect or function of management.

Now we come to the really silly bit where Charlie has a bit of a rant against homosexuals and transvestites, apparently believing that they are incapable of managing, leading or being brave. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, as Charlie regularly discriminates against people because of their race or nationality; but it doesn’t make it acceptable, and if Charlie continues to do this I will make a formal complaint to PP Admin to have him removed permantly from the forum.

Chris Oggham

Hello Charlie,

How are you, hope your’re doing well. Your Post#33 a bit hitting below the Belt, you know there are some of our Co-members might be hit. Please try to be considerable.

This Forum i think is not meant for History this is meant for today and tomorrow that is why we are called PLANNER.

Regards,

Jerry

McArthur a Philippine hero? I don’t think so. Yes he did promise that he shall return so he did. With McArthur or without McArthur, the Americans will return to the Philippines because the Americans needed to clear the way going to Tokyo and to protect Australia. This is the same reason why they they pulverized first the Japs in Papua New Guinea, Iwo Jima, the Philippines and other small islands and also to minimize as much as possible American casualties. The strategy is not to engage the enemy in front and at the back at the same time.

IMHO,
Se

Se,

You are entitled to your own opinion. I also agree that he was not a hero as per Philippines textbook.

General Douglas MacArthur is "MY HERO".

I read his bio-graphy "GENERAL DOUGLAS MACARTHUR: THE AMERICAN CAESAR"

It helped me in my college days and early days as professional civil engineer because I wanted to be like him, what he did, his life when he went to West Point, the way he live. He was a bright student, top of his class (Baron, in PMA). He demonstrated bravery in his youth, a born leader. Brilliant

This is what this thread all about: Leadership.

Also this is for the young one, not the young once (the old one should learn that the HERO is in you after all the trials in life).


Please do not make negative statement of "MY HERO".

Cheers,

Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant

HI Jerry,

I’m doing fine. How about you??

We do have to look at the past, specially leader (the subject of this post). This is because the present day leaders are not really solving the problems. This is evident in the project they manage at the same time lead. They can be judged past the events that took place, the how, why, etc., etc.,....

With respect to hitting the belt, actually in some culture Homo Sapien or Transvites are not accepted. They are discriminated and this is very true. It is wrong to say the truth here in PP.

In UK, they accept this abnormal behavior, for example SIR ELTON JOHN. And UK standard cannot be imposed on other countries in accepting abnormal behaviour human behaviour.

When I was in Malaysia, I got lost in Jalan Chokit. I saw this girl with skirt, nice body telling me Hi. When I look at her/she/he, she/he got ADAM’s apple. I have to run.

But I was told the story about Sodom and Gomorah, so I cannnot involve with this kind of activities and I always maintain a respectable distance with this kind of people.

It is up to planning planet if I will be remove because I’m telling the truth.

Cheers,

Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant

Charles.

Until now I have enjoyed some of your rants and find them sometimes funny.

Your attack on people sexual preferences is out of order.
In my country this is classed the same as being racist and should not be allowed to be posted on PP. You could be arrested for this in some western countries.
It does not matter if you are gay, transvestite, black, white or brown everyone should be treated the same. Even if you are against it they should be left alone.
“In UK, they accept this abnormal behavior, for example SIR ELTON JOHN. And UK standard cannot be imposed on other countries in accepting abnormal behaviour human behaviour.”
Elton John has done more for good causes than you would ever do in your life. Our queen has also knighted him and I find your comment totally out of order.

Personal choices on race, spirituality, gender has nothing to do with leadership or planning so please avoid posting them on this web site.

W@NKER

Gerome,

I totally agree with your post, I wish I could have put it that well.

Charlie’s views seem to be becoming more extreme, but Planning Planet is not the place for them to be expressed. Charlie complains about a supposed attempt to impose UK standards on other countries, where is this happening then? As far as I can see the only person attempting impose standards is Charlie, and what narrow-minded, bigoted standards they are.

Chris Oggham

Gerome and Chris; QFT

I had planned to write something too but was left open mouthed at the notion of Homo Sapiens being discriminated against... by who; homo erectus? Neanderthals? The obvious answer is cats, who discriminate against all other species, but they’re not a culture, as such.

Open bigotry is the most common reason given for banning people from forums across the internets. It’s better than closet bigotry I suppose...

Gerome,

What I’m trying to say is that in Planning Planet, some members were raise not accepting this behaviour.

As you said, in western countries. Is planning planet western countries. Ok we will give the gays there rights but the others also must have there rights.

At the end of the day, it is the moderator that will have the final say of what we post here. Agree with this. OK

I will continue:

threathening a fellow PP member to be zap or remove in PP is the greatest act of cowardice.

cowards are not leaders, WHY THIS MAN IS THREATHENING ME??????, I know the answers because this is not the first time I’m threathen and this is also not the last.

Remember this

It is the brave and daring that shows leadership qualities.

Sensei,
Successful Project Management Consultant

And as a parting words to leave this issue and move on the the main issue of this thread: LEADERSHIP

Some leaders of the world today or some royal of the world today may not be able to say this

BUT I HAVE THIS TO SAY:

REMEMBER SODOM AND GOMORRAH

Charles,

What I would do is stop looking at everyone like you’re a victim and really have a long had look at yourself as it is not just me who against your views, comments and postings on PP.
I have not threatened you, if you were on fire I would not even p!ss on you to put out the flames. You’re just not worth the time or effort.

Sorry to all the other PP members who is reading this.

Charlie,

Surely by now you have realised that your posts have offended a large number of people. Yet far from withdrawing or apologising you have begun trying to moralise and justify your utterances. You whinge and moan that people don’t give you the respect you seem to think is your due, but after the bigoted, vindictive posts that you have made in so many threads, is that surprising?

Clive is absolutely right, real planners are not bigots and respect the opinions and inclinations of others, even if they don’t agree with them. I also agree with Gerome’s sentiments should you ever catch fire.

Chris Oggham

I think he was talking about me Gerome...

Charley darling, I didn’t threaten you. A threat is an if/then statement. I simply stated an (albeit anecdotal) statistic.

I am not a moderator or you would have already heard about it. As such, please feel free to go on spouting your bigotted views in an (I have to admit somewhat successful) attempt to get noticed. Even though I wish you would not.

who were Soddam and Gammorah ... a band?

James,

To be honest I think it’s just Charlie’s paranoia that leads him to believe he’s being threatened. As for his attempts to be noticed yes, I suppose you are right they are quite successful. But I would ask, who in their right mind wants to be noticed in the same way that you notice something rather nasty on your shoe?

Chris

Please all don’t mix biblical stories with Planning planet, it is not the place to discuss such things.

Sexual orientation shouldn’t affect your judgment whether a planner/project manager will do a good job or not, it simply doesn’t has a relationship with the management/leadership issues.

IMHO sexual orientation should be a matter of ethics/morals/culture, it differs from place to another and absolutely shouldn’t be discussed herein.

Racism also defines a person who is narrow minded, ignorant and wrong, We are all human beings.
People should be judged by the contents of their minds (As Dr. Martin Luther King said).
One who believes in supremacy of race against other is mistaken both ethically and scientifically.

Karim

Karim,

I agree with you.

NOw the thread can be best explain in hypothical case:

Two manager with the same qualification. Both can be the fundamental function of management: Planning, orgranizing, implementation, control/monitoring.

What will separate the one from the other in delivery of projects.

LEADERSHIP

In conclusion, leadership will prevail and will make a lot of difference.

Cheers,
Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant

Charlie,

There aren’t many times you’re right, and this certainly isn’t one of them. In your post #55 you said that you would explain with a hypothetical case, you didn’t do that.

What you did do was mis-state the functions of management, just so there is no mistake I’ll list them for you:

Planning
Organising
Commanding
Coordinating
Controlling

Henri Fayol

Planning
Organising
Leading
Controlling

Louis Allen

You then went on to make a statement that what would separate one from the other in the delivery of projects was leadership. What utter tosh!

In case you hadn’t noticed, Leadership is an integral function of management. Leadership styles vary, some managers are better at it than others, but you have, as always, offered no evidence to support your assertion. In this instance I do not believe that there is any evidence that could be offered. In support of that assertion I offer the following:

Management principles still are the same. It is just that the tools have changed. You still find the right people to do the work and get out of the way so they can do it.

You’ll find it in Gerry Madden’s 100 Rules for NASA Project Managers, it’s rule 3 in the Project Manager section.

Strangely enough he doesn’t have much to say about leadership, the nearest he comes to it is in rule 9 in the same section:

The boss may not know how to do the work but he has to know what he wants. The boss had better find out what he expects and wants if he doesn’t know. A blind leader tends to go in circles.

In other words if the project manager doesn’t understand what is needed, it doesn’t matter how charismatic he is, how many rousing speeches he makes, how gallantly he is prepared to die for his project, the only place he’s going to lead it is right into the toilet.

You then give one of your more ridiculous generalising platitudes about leadership prevailing and making a lot of difference; what, precisely, is it going to prevail against?

Charlie, you really are full of it.

Chris Oggham

Brad,

Excellent idea, the PP get together. Some suggestions came to my MIND:

Where: Few options would be:

A place with tolerance to all sexual orientations: Amsterdam
Place with the best Beer: Brussels
A place with tolerance to use (but not abuse) of drugs consumption: Amsterdam
A place with excellent food: Rome and Paris

PP member with mandatory attendance;
YOU
Clive Randall
Chris Oggham

The above members have posted more than 400 posts

Who is going to pay the bill: The get together would be considered as an expense of the budget from the Successful PM consultant with mandatory attendance.

Cheers

Brussels has more Michelin starred restos per head of population than any other city in the world, so I’m led to believe. Of course that’s mostly to do with the EU and various lobby groups with nothing better to do than spend OUR tax money on entertainment.

That’s expected to change with Michelin’s first edition guide to Tokyo due out next year.

We also have the best Chips and while I tip my hat to Amsterdam for their toleration of mild substance abuse Eindhoven is a short drive from Bxl and the belgian police are pretty tolerant of imports ;-)

Oh, and Brussels is 2.5 hrs by train from London (less now Paddington is open I think), 1.5 from Paris and 3 from Amdam (until the Thalys gets sorted) so centrally located aswell.

My wife already points and laughs at me when I say I’m on a forum of planners. I have no idea what her reaction would be to me announcing that I was going to a meetup.

What is the collective noun for planners anyway?

MEET UP,
In the Damm !!!????

Hey i’m up for tea & Cake & a Smoke !!!?